Shaker Unfiltered: Ep.4 – Erin Wozniak

Folks, we are back for another episode of Shaker Unfiltered and I have an alumni, a legend in the space. Uh, she just started uh 5 years ago, uh, when she was 12 in [laughter] this business, but no, uh, I am I’m joined by Aaron Wazn. >> Hi, John. >> It’s great to see you, friend. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> No, it’s a pleasure. I’m sure uh the booth has gotten bigger. >> It has. It has. 75 years. You got to >> 75. >> You got to you got to sprawl a little bit to get all that in. >> Little bit. Little bit. Yes. Yes. So, look, we’ve got a lot of catching up to do. >> We do. >> Um I I want the people to know you. So, I would love for you to tell them uh who you are, where you are, and what you do. >> Okay. Right now, I am Aaron Wazak. I am the global head of employer brand at a management consulting and technology firm called ZS. So you can think of us in the same space as the Deoites, the Essenters, the BCGs, the Mckenzies. Yeah. >> Um we are just over 13,000 employees global in um 35 offices around the world. >> Work with all of the top 100 pharma. So Amgen is one of our clients. Um and the global employer brand function sits in marketing communications. So in our enterprise function um business partners to the TA group in um all things talent attraction employer branding lot of reputation management so >> all the things. >> All the things. >> Yeah. Okay. Got you. And you have been in this industry for a few. How did you get here? >> Megan Tracy. It all starts with Megan Tracy >> hired me as an aspiring ad agency marketing grad. >> Uhhuh. >> Um in 1997. >> Yeah, it was a good year. >> It was a good year. Uh yeah, I it was back when you mailed your resume. >> Oh my gosh. We were just talking about that. Like you had a cover letter. >> You had a cover letter. Yeah. >> Physical paper resume that you put in an envelope with a stamp. Yep. >> And then it gets to the company and then you wait >> and you wait. >> Like people complain about like >> waiting now. [laughter] >> No, you don’t know waiting. You’re you’re mad about a couple days like and and let’s hope it got to where you sent it. >> Yes, it did. >> It it went to every agency in Chicago and um Megan Tracy called me and I was like recruitment what [laughter] >> they do that >> they do. People need agencies to do that. >> Yeah. Um and and the rest is history. I mean it is crazy. I >> I’ve had various detours in other parts of marketing both as a consultant on the you know agency side and as a practitioner. >> Yep. >> But um most of my career has been in this crazy crazy world that we live in. >> So we have kind of a flipped story in that I came I came into the game through uh as a practitioner. >> Yep. and uh and and Aaron was on my account and that’s how we met. And then I came to the dark side as the consulting side. >> You came to the right side. >> You went >> I went to the dark side of corporate America. >> Yeah. And I’m like, “Hey, I’m happy here. You you got it.” But but that’s got that’s an interesting take because I think coming in through the agency window, you see the recruitment, marketing, and talent space through a different lens. >> I do. How has that helped you navigate now the other side? >> Yeah. >> Right. >> It’s it’s been absolutely critical the the environment as an enterprise marketing function. We function exactly like an in-house agency. So our business stakeholders, our internal clients are all practice owners and have expertise and talent needs all in their their different rights. And so it is like having one client with 1,200 contacts. [laughter] >> Wow. >> So the agency world prepared me well for it. >> Very good. Very good. So I I would love to hear just your daytoday now. Um you know you’ve got your tech stack, you’ve got >> Yep. >> Uh got your your your creative going. >> Yep. >> But the brand >> the brand. Yep. >> Talk to me about the brand. the build the process how has that been from this side >> so it’s been absolutely wonderful >> the our organization ZS is a challenger brand in its space you know when I said ZS nobody knows ZS but you know the >> big four >> right um and as of 23 um we did not have a go to market strategy that was at the brand level. >> Okay. >> All the different parts of you know marketing operated you know >> campaign level >> campaign level based on industry on where they needed to target based on um >> the space within whether it’s the solution that you’re providing the client. Yeah. um or the so or the service. So, it’s it’s it’s been wonderful. These very last recent years, we had a new CMO come in and really change the way that we’re doing it so that we do have a unified brand brand level presence >> and I was able to bring that to the employer brand space and our building a brand of an employer of choice. um you know well before that. So I sort of greased the skids a little bit and got everybody comfortable with it. But um >> not a small feat by the way. That is that is not easy. >> It has and it’s not over. >> So it’s it’s never over. >> It’s never over. That is actually one very big difference between agency life and practitioner life is agency life there’s some wins and you you get to celebrate those whether you finish a big project you you know have good campaign results you get a new client and it it so that I miss >> yeah yes so we do have the good fortune of being able to celebrate those and then move on >> it is ongoing dayto day so it’s interesting though because It used to be like a standard like you know oh yeah okay we’re gonna talk about this now but the relationship between employer brand and marketing I’m hearing that disconnect a lot less now >> and I’m hearing more integration of EB into the marketing function right so I finally I think CMOs are embracing employs is you know I think one of the trailblazers there so I came to ZS I was recruited um by the marketing function I report up in through marketing through the the CMO and my >> business partner in delivering to the business is the talent acquisition group in HR and so um it mirrors the exact you know shared service model that in my other practitioner role at Aspen Dentl many years ago um so it’s I am very very lucky to be in that scenario where I am surrounded by marketers that speak the language >> that speak the language and and understand it. And the recruiter enablement piece of in the programming of what my team does is you know exactly like the sales enablement you know on the you know client side. So it’s I’m very lucky in that sense. It’s great. >> So the talent organization is more uh sounds like they’re your client. >> They are they’re our business partner. We share the client, the bit, the the >> the business. >> The business. Yeah. >> True, true, true. Okay. So, so to that point then, uh because I love that there’s alignment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. We’ve got here in the year of our lower 20s. >> Yes. >> Um talk to me a bit about the strategy behind it, right? Cuz you mentioned being very campaign specific, but now sounds like there’s a bigger strategy, a broader strategy. Now, how how have you gotten to the strategic >> uh importance of employer brand? not just as oh we need butts and seats right but actually a business benefit. So the the way we’ve done it is thinking about you know in the enterprise marketing function it it’s all about demand generation demand generation and in a service industry where literally the people are your product the consultants are your product the supply comes way before that and if you don’t have the supply >> then you can’t deliver on your demand that you create and so the >> the strategy is all about Okay, if we don’t have this, this is the revenue sacrifice because the revenue potential of this particular hire, whether it’s a consultant, a partner, is X >> and um the the areas where we need people, that’s kind of where it all starts. And it’s um all about the storytelling. And so the strategy on the always on storytelling that you have to have both internally and externally is where it starts. So what are the things that the parts of our employer value proposition that where we win and what we want to be known for and how do we take those areas define the content pillars you know the proof points and build an always on strategy that is I hate even calling it a campaign because it’s there are campaigns >> bigger than that >> it’s bigger than that and there >> campaigns are a part of it. I mean, we have >> instances where, you know, we’re opening this new office and we need this many and then you do a campaign, but >> the work and the the always on reputation management, brand strategy, all of that storytelling is is anchored around what do we want to be known for and what do we want people to identify their pride and purpose? with at ZS to >> to be successful. >> Yeah. I I love this what what you’re describing we call an employer brand operating system. >> Yeah. >> Right. It’s fully integrated and it has to be and it all has to connect or else that disconnect will become obvious. But I want to I want to dig into something. Two things you said. One um bringing the money into it, the dollars and cents of the um the the business case if you will, right? the showcase if you don’t do X Y and Z this is the risk you’re running revenue wise but then also you said the storytelling and always on I wonder when you get to the storytelling and we’ll sort of approach this counterproductive okay >> counterintuitively no always productive not [laughter] counter counterintuitively >> not always as intuitive but all right >> we’ll be productive um what do you tell candidates uh that would make them not want to join >> why shouldn’t they join. >> I love that question. >> So, um, we hire the best of the best. >> Let’s go. the you know h our performance bar is high and we are a client first organization >> and so we’re not going to shy away from you know if you’re somebody that isn’t able to find your work life blend easily >> new term I love that work life >> um so I credit that term to John Murphy who is the um global head of TA at Aspen Dentl. um he was the one that coined that term and I love it because >> it’s you know it’s true people talk about work life balance everybody’s work life balance means something different depending on who you are where you are in your life what your >> you know >> what your family so um we want people that are intense and bring grit and it it doesn’t mean you work 24/7 that’s unrealistic but there is an intensity and you know if if you’re not inspired ired by that and you’re not motivated by that, >> this isn’t for you. >> This isn’t for you. >> And I think I wish more companies would be okay saying. Yeah. >> Right. I think >> we’re starting to see some shifts of of sort of that repel, right? Yeah. Uh we’ve done the compel. Yeah. >> Uh model I think exa overexhaustively, >> but nobody’s being honest about if this is not your jam, please don’t apply. Like let’s not waste your time or ours. This is who we are, >> right? We’re upfront about that. We’re transparent. We’re putting that through the storytelling, right? We have our people showcasing what it is to work here. >> But that there’s still this sort of >> resistance to just saying. >> Yeah. >> And and I’m sure it comes to what legal’s comfortable with, what uh corporate brand maybe, right? >> Yep. >> Um where do you see any shifts or any uh headway being made in terms of getting to that open transparency about who you are fully? So, we’ve made a lot of strides in it and all of the life at ZS stories that we put out in market go through a very meticulous curation and review and production process to make sure that ultimately what we are describing is the impact opportunity that you have and it is compelling in the way that makes you feel pride and purpose for the work that you’re going to get to do. >> Yeah. >> And you know by nature of the description of the detail and the level of of impact that we describe in those stories and showcasing the you know the human connection to that. um you know we ultimately we are after the compel but to your point it is in a in a an employer market which is what we are in right now >> um in order to >> you know think about all our recruiters and the just the volume of what they are >> doing right now and to not compromise the candidate experience based on that. So that’s how we >> that’s tough. It is tough. It’s very tough. Yeah. >> And we’re we’re an organization. I mean, we’re going to hire 4,000 people this year. >> Our competitors are laying off. Our clients are laying off. And so, we have we have an amazing career opportunity story to tell. And um we’re proud of it. >> That’s fantastic. I I think I’m hearing volume >> and candidate experience and those things. >> It’s hard. >> That is the balance that is ever imbalanced, right? So, how are you implementing tech as a tool to sort of find that happy medium? >> So, um we’re an ISIMS shop. >> Um in terms of our ATS. >> Okay. >> Um we have also so the highest volume of our hiring happens at the early career level straight off campus. >> Yep. >> And the vast majority of the 4,000 that we’re going to hire this year are in India. And so um the the two engines that help us with that handshake in the US and the version in India is called superset. Okay. >> And so those are the two pieces of tech and also community talent community that that we use that we leverage >> all the time. >> Yeah. >> As a matter of you know table stakes. Well, I mean, you have to [laughter] there’s no manual anymore. Like, that’s over with. But, but how do you maintain sort of the humanity in it? >> Very close, good relationships, building trust with our HIS group. And we have um a new director of HIS systems that is coming in and um really taking a look at our full tech stack across um not only TA but all of HR and um have a wonderful relationship with her and the you know the weekly administration calls with ISIMS myself or somebody on my team are are part of that. It’s just we’re part of the team. So >> we we bring the humanity >> listen >> we bring the reminder of okay that’s all great but remember how that impacts this recruiter and how it impacts this candidate always candidate first. So um and the a lot of the messaging and the communications that go out through those and that’s a huge piece of what our group is is partnering with them on. So >> love that. Love that. So, relationships matter, folks. >> They do. >> And uh and I love that you’re carrying that forward from your shaker days. Oh, yes. Once it’s in there, >> never lose goes away. Um so, on on the tech space, I mean, >> the big question around AI, >> uh I think we’re getting to some some leveling out as far as approach. >> Yeah. >> Uh compliance. >> Yep. >> Uh and I’m sure in in in your industry there’s no shortage of compliance around data, right? though how are you seeing AI influence or even change just in the time that you’ve been there >> your process for talent first touch all the way through to hire >> so the biggest transformation has been in our speed to market so what I was describing the process that goes through just to write a blog post a life at CS story that process and that sort of formula of going from web first to then promotion and application across Ross all of your channels has shifted to social first >> and the pace and the scale that we can co-curate with our partners across marcoms has dramatically changed >> and so um that’s the biggest piece >> the the compliance and the regulation of that and making sure that we’re not teaching R8, I tools, all of our natural human biases and and and things like that. We’re we’ve worked we have an amazing um data security team. >> Okay. >> And the just making sure everybody’s thinking of all of those things as we test new products and try and it’s we’re you know that’s standard operating procedure at CS is to manage and identify and mitigate your risk in everything. best you can. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I wonder like I’m seeing this this sort of weird awkward space now with the use of AI where uh somebody’s like like people are quick to say oh I I I wrote that with AI or I’m like you don’t have to say that. It’s like >> nobody questions the house that was built and the tool that was used to build it. Right. The house nice. Okay cool. Does it is it is it functional? And I think we’re still at that point of like it feels like you’re cheating. >> Yeah. >> But but it’s but it’s a tool of our time. So what what have you seen in terms of governance in terms of uh normalization of the use of it in day-to-day? >> So it is excuse me it’s a first draft when you’re talking about content curation. It’s a first it’s never going to be 100%. >> Um but you know we it’s it’s not something that you can just rely on wholeheartedly. I mean, and I mean, all the all the things that you read now about how, you know, what’s making AI really, the people that are making it great and making it work for them, it’s the humans. >> It’s the humans. It’s all feeding off of our input. >> Yes. Yes. So, um, proud of that and that we’ve, you know, we have a space where we’re encouraged to test and fail and and do all those things. But, >> Sure. Um, yeah, it’s it’s not something that we’re holding on to as, you know, our jobs aren’t going to go away. They’re our jobs are getting different and it’s helping us be better strategists and better briefers. [laughter] >> Oh my god. Yes. >> Because you can, you know, um, there’s just the scale of the ideation and the concepting and just is is goes so much further. >> 100%. Absolutely. So, I I would love to As we’re talking about the tech, the data that’s coming through the tech now, right, is hopefully enabling you to get better insight. >> It is. >> I would love to hear for you to share um any insights that have come in in recent where you were facing a challenge um you you had the data, somebody analyzed it, crafted some insights that then helped you make a better decision. >> Yeah. >> Give us an example of that. >> So there’s two. >> Okay. AI is helping us with the age-old conundrum of my website analytics are telling me this, my ATS analytics are telling me this. >> Okay. >> And so >> because and I’m again lucky in this sense with CS is that because we are not only a consulting firm but we are a technology firm. We have our own platform and products that we build. So we have a whole engine of >> people creating agents not only for client solutions but we can come to them as marketers and say I have this I have this data over here and I need it to tell me how it’s >> influencing impacting this data over here. Sure >> and so we can get to those those connections. That’s one way. um learnings we’ve started to kind of break away I was mentioning earlier the the formulaic of the web first blog post and um and the debate of stock photography >> genai or actual zsers >> sure >> and I am mystified >> oh I I want to hear this >> because the It’s it’s not consistent. We have nine ten times engagement for the silly gritty user generated you know post that somebody did that 9x of you know the pretty campaign polished still a zser but you know in a new look and feel that was you know co-curated by people and and AI. >> Sure. And then the next day we have the exact opposite results. And so >> we’re learning. >> Okay. >> And um but to me it’s when you really sit back and think about it, is it really a surprise that it’s it’s the blend of both that makes it work? >> Probably not. >> But it’s it’s amazing to see. and we we have access to those analytics and they are delivered to us in dashboards that get us quickly to insights without having to you know dig and that kind of thing. So that’s where AI has has really helped. >> Sure. >> Again speed to market and you know fail fast. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. I it’s a it’s an interesting point in that again we’re at this weird inflection point of we we we are trained on we’re educated in a in a model right of human first trust yes imagery and now the AI is getting so good that most people can’t tell the difference >> and so I I it might be industry specific it might be case specific but if people can’t tell the difference if it’s an actual ZS employee versus a very well AI generated depiction of somebody experiencing ZS. I I don’t know. Is there an ethical issue there? Does it matter? Like these are the questions that are still being sus. We’re still working that out. But I think for for the fact that you’re trying you’re testing and then you’re analyzing and seeing the result >> that’s that will be the proof, right? >> So I love that. Um I want to uh get your perspective uh cuz you’ve seen a lot of change over the course of your time and tenure in uh the recruitment marketing space and employer [clears throat] brand space. >> I want to look five years into the future. >> Okay. >> Right. And you can put this in the context of DS >> or you could put this in the context of in general but where do you see the biggest impact uh on recruitment marketing? I won’t say from recruitment mark but on recruitment marketing over the next five years whether that’s candidate experience whether that’s internal >> so I I think the idea of the profile of the candidate it’s already started >> sure >> do you have to have you know a degree from a certain place and do you have to have you know all these different certificates or all different kind. I I think the certificates and the specific training in this technology or this coding I I think that is going to trump the degree the degree pedigree. I mean, it’s already started, but I think a I I think the AI sort of acceleration of how fast you can learn and become an expert in some of those very specific things. I think that’s probably if I if I had a five-year crystal ball, um I think that’s going to start to to accelerate. So, >> that’s a bold prediction and I think >> I think you’re spy I think you’re spying on, >> you know, be alert. >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Well, Aaron, I really appreciate you stopping by. >> Thank you for having me. It’s an honor, friend. Absolutely. Folks, this has been another episode of Shaker Unfiltered with the incomparable Aaron Rosenir. >> Thank you so much, John. >> Appreciate it.