Shaker Unfiltered: Ep.1 – Susan LaMotte

what I call the trampoline effect with technology. So, if you look back, many of us that have been in the space um like you said, since we were 12 or um since we were five. Um I’m not going to properly age myself today. We started with job ads, right? My first HR job, I was getting resumes faxed to me. I don’t even think young people know what a fax machine is. But then, you know, fast forward mid early mid 2000s, we started to see this big advent of technology and it was super exciting. But also, organizations were really scared. what do we do? Do we need social media policies? And then we went all in on technology and then all of a sudden it was just overwhelm and overload. And so you saw a lot of organizations pause, refresh tech stacks, take a look, and now with AI, we’re back again. So what’s really interesting is we’re back in technology, but now the need isn’t necessarily for more tech. It’s for better tech, smarter tech, and more strategy. That is really exciting to me because in this space and in our industry, that’s the piece that is consistently missing is really good strategy. >> This is Shaker Unfiltered where we break down the full world of recruitment marketing from talent attraction and employer branding to martekch and analytics. Join us for real stories, bold ideas, and practical insights [music] that help you stay ahead and take your talent strategy further. Let’s get into [music] it. All right, folks. That’s right. We’re here with a whole new season, a new look, new feel. Shaker Unfiltered live at the Vision Lab. And our guest today, uh, Susan Lamont, a pioneer in the field of employer brand. As founder and CEO of Exacio, Susan has spent more than two decades shaping how organizations think about talent, work, and the relationship employees have with their employers. Before launching Exacio, she led global employer brand and talent strategy efforts for major brands like Marriott and the Ritz Carlton. Her work helped set the stage for many of the practices that we see in the industry today. At Exacquo, Susan built innovative models that move beyond traditional employer value propositions. These include the whole self model, uh the idea of source of influence over source of hire and new frameworks for candidate experience. She holds an MBA from Vanderbilt, an MA in human resource development from George Washington University, and a BA in communications and public relations from from Virginia Tech. Now, with Exacio joining the Shaker family, Susan continues to expand the reach and impact of her work. So, let’s uh let’s put our hands together uh and welcome Susan to the show. Susan, >> hey, John. How are you? Hey, I’m amazing in the moment. How are you feeling? >> I am feeling great. Really excited about the next step for Exacio and our future together. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, tell me, where are you joining us from today? >> Today, I am in sunny Charleston, South Carolina, but it’s not going to be sunny for long, apparently. I I looked at the weather, it looks like rain for the next 10 days, but it is hurricane season, so to be expected here. Well, it is the changing of the season. Uh, which in Dallas really we don’t see that until like January. So, that’s fine. [laughter] That’s fine. Well, look, we’ve got I’ve got so many there’s so much going on. A lot of exciting things. I’d love to jump right in. So, look, you’ve been you’ve been a leader in this space for for a long time. Uh, and that means you started when you were 12 and so here we are in your 20s. You’re you’re you’re crushing it. Um, but I’d love to start at higher level. So when you think about where employer brand is today, um what excites you the most about it, what especially the evolution of this work, >> I think what’s the most exciting about employer brand and where we are today has been what I call the trampoline effect with technology. So if you look back, you know, many of us that have been in the space um like you said, since we were 12 or um since we were five, um I’m not going to properly age myself today. Um, but you know, we started with job ads, right? My first HR job, I was getting resumes faxed to me. I don’t even think young people know what a fax machine is. Um, but then, you know, fast forward mid early mid 2000s, we started to see this big advent of technology and it was super exciting, but also organizations were really scared. What do we do? Do we need social media policies? How do we handle this? And then we went all in on technology and then all of a sudden it was just overwhelm and overload. And so you saw a lot of organizations pause, refresh tech stacks, take a look, and now with AI, we’re back again. So what’s really interesting is we’re back in technology, but now the need isn’t necessarily for more tech. It’s for better tech, smarter tech, and more strategy. That is really exciting to me because in this space and in our industry, that’s the piece that is consistently missing is really good strategy. >> I couldn’t agree more. Yeah. And I I think we’re we’re in such a rush uh of tech like a hyper accelerated tech advancement now where you know the rules are being rewritten literally by the second. So as soon as you start to get comfortable with something there’s like 10 giant leaps ahead. The that being the case right and and I think there’s still a lot of work in the education around employer brand space to do. I think we’re you know our leaders are getting better but there’s still a lot of thought around employer branding be being campaign specific or campaign or creative messaging only right but I think your perspective uh is fascinating because it’s always gone deeper to more of an operational level uh more systemic level uh so from your point of view what does it really mean to embed employer brand into a company’s business systems not just stay at campaign level >> yeah I think it’s very important to think about how employer embeds in your organization the same way that our colleagues in marketing did it 10-15 years ago which is we’re not transacting with customers we’re building relationships and if you know you recall that set off a whole flurry of customer experience work and customer journeys and customer relationships and so over on the people’s side of the business we said oh we should be doing that too but the challenge is we weren’t necessarily as an industry strategic in how we did it. It was let’s create a journey and it still created this process or this transaction. So for me, I really would love to see our industry make the same shift and really embrace human behavior even more so than we’ve done in marketing because I always say jobs put food on your table and a roof over your head, right? The way that I can feed my family is through working. the way that I can make sure my children are taken care of. Those are very visceral personal needs different than, you know, maybe the phone I buy or the cup of coffee. You would argue that it’s so much more important to feed your family. And so I think that’s the the interesting thing for me is I don’t think our industry has truly grasped that yet. We’re still so focused on the transaction. And that probably is the thing that that drives me the most crazy and why we can’t get there. why we can’t really look at employment as a relationship when we should be. >> That’s listen I think you just read my mind uh and the cries of many of us in this space for years. Why do you think that it’s still right let’s give it like 15 20 years let’s say respectively of employer branding being a thing officially. Why do you think that there’s still this hesitancy or or this lack of adoption of this more human centered approach versus transactional? Why is it still just butts and seats in the in the minds of uh leadership or employers? >> Yeah, I think it boils down to influence and dollars, right? At the end of the day, what are customers doing? Customers are putting money in the pockets of the organizations that they’re buying products and services from. Whereas people are still in many cases the biggest line item on your P&L as an organization. Um particularly the benefits that you provide your people. Healthcare is often the biggest line item on a company’s P&L. And so it’s really challenging to argue that you should put all of your resources, your efforts, and your perspectives into focusing on that. I think the second piece is that employer brand as a function because it had its roots in talent acquisition, the first part of the employment relationship, right? Awareness that a job or a company exists and then of course that journey to taking the the job itself. Many organizations are still limiting this function or this industry within talent acquisition and in a corner of talent acquisition, right? Which is just talent attraction or just recruitment marketing. And those of us that have been doing it for a long time, you know this, right? Employer brand is branding and marketing the entire journey. So, you’re not just attracting talent, but you’re also retaining it. And it’s really hard to have any influence on the retention piece or even the onboarding piece if you’re stuck as a recruitment marketing professional in that corner of talent attraction and talent acquisition. And that just boils down to company politics, right? It’s if you’re working what what level in a fortune 500 company if you’re consistently at the manager and director level it’s really hard to influence unless you have one massive piece of research that has really impactful data that can help drive the discussion. Unless you find leaders in your organization, you know, a VP or a particular business unit or geography that sees the value and wants to pilot test some of it. It just makes it really challenging to make a name for yourself and to try to prove that value when you’re stuck in a corner. >> Totally. And and I’ve yet to see a VP of employer brand at, you know, a massive organization yet. I think I think >> there’s a couple of them, but not many. Not many. >> Yeah, there’s like a few. I’ve I’ve seen I’ve seen one or two maybe in my career, but it is rare. Um, and and I think you make a really good point. It’s where EB is or recruitment marketing uh is housed, right? That then unfortunately takes on whatever the influence or uh validity uh in in leadership’s eyes based on that uh based on where it’s housed. Uh and I’m starting for sure. >> Yeah. Are you seeing more uh EB practitioners even now moving into the marketing space or the comm space or what’s your take on that? >> That’s the perennial that’s the perennial debate, right? Is where should EB sit? if I had a buck for every LinkedIn thread around where does your employer brand function belong. I for me it’s less of where it sits and it’s more the level of influence. I would argue that the chief human resources officer should be a chief employment relationship officer. The same way that your CMO is responsible for the whole journey right and the entire relationship you have with the customer so should the CHRO. And the challenge is most CHRO’s spend so much of their time on the transactional piece, right? Either on the tech stack or the tech stack contracts or benefits or the legal piece. And so your strategies tend to shift into that transactional piece, which means it’s really hard to make the case to say, “Oh, it should be about employee experience.” Some organizations have tried and you’ll find VPs of employee experience, but no one is looking at it that I have seen. Please prove me wrong, people. Prove me wrong. Um, that the CHRO is focused on that relationship because that’s where the money is. That’s where the value is. >> Last Door just did that big study. I don’t know if you saw it on the um impact of layoffs and the cost um for an organization well beyond um the actual cost of the layoffs. Um there was one organization they calculated up to$20 billion dollar in additional costs due to turnover disengagement um all of those pieces. So if we can monetize some of that and measure some of that the you know the energy might be there but we’re just spending a lot of time on the transaction. We’re spending a lot of time just on the what’s the campaign how many clicks all that stuff is important >> but you still need a strategy to go along with it. >> Sure. I I guess it would require sort of this this mindset shift from near-term short-term uh solutioning all right to to fill the wreck get the people going generating revenue product whatever the case may be versus that 20 20 what was it 20 billion uh in in in additional cost uh related to turnover and hiring like that’s yes it would require a bigger view right an expanded purview but I think also So uh we have to make the case better as well. And I think there’s been a tough time when it comes to analytics and data to showcase that which which is a good transition because I think you know at Shaker we talk a lot about how um the employer brand the talent attraction uh the martekch uh and and the analytics all have to work together. Um, and so when you think about, you know, the impact of this work, when all of those areas come together, where do you see, I guess, something that would support these shifts that we’re talking about in more long-term thinking? How how do we leverage this? >> Yeah, for me, it’s data that moves the needle. So, it’s not just the one-time set of data that you look at once a year, but it is regular data and insights. And those are two different things, but regular data and insights that you can actually see, okay, we did X and now we’re measuring Y. And that costs money. And that’s the challenge, right? The the actual investment that we make. I think in human resources, we’ve done a good job of investing in data. We haven’t done a good job in in investing in the regularity of it, nor have we in the insights. So when we think about the value for example of all of the martekch work and analytics and actually measuring the effect of the technology but organizations really struggle in then connecting that back to the actual relationship. What does it mean for example if I’m influenced by an ad I see to go apply for a job? What does it mean two years later after I’ve taken that job? How did that initial influence carry through? and did it change my behavior and now two years later do I feel like the promise was delivered and do I feel like I’m going to then communicate that promise to the next person and part of it John is you know we live in a really reactive world right now that’s how our leaders are operating everything is very bottom line driven particularly if you work for a public company and of course right we live in a capitalistic country particularly in the US so that’s not a surprise but what is a surprise are these short-term moves everyone is making to move a short-term needle when it comes to finance as opposed to having the long view. It’s harder to make a case for these kinds of investments when your leadership is in that reactive mode. >> Absolutely. I love that you made the distinction. You drew the distinctive line between data and insights, right? And I think, you know, historically, I’ll say maybe in the past 10 years, it was really about getting access to data. We’ve had a lot of technological advancements, platforms that have come out to collect all this data, but now you still need to make sense of it all. Um, and I think that’s where you really shine in terms of bringing the insights to help move the needle, not just from the um, you know, the back end, the employer brand, and then ultimately the the uh, the the attraction work, but even at the the research uh, front end, right, and and EVP development. Talk to me a little bit about that in terms of how you approach historically um data and insights to help shape the narrative. >> Always like to look at at problems that organizations have and seek to understand why it’s a problem. You know, as you said it really well around this notion that we’ve had data for a while and over the past, you know, many years in HR, particularly with, you know, the the bloating of tech stacks, we have a lot of data. There’s no doubt about it and HR organizations have done a really good job, so has HR techch, in getting us that data. But I kept trying to uncover why is it that we can’t make any change? Why is it that we’re still seeing, you know, such low levels of engagement, that candidate experience sentiment has not moved? And if it has moved, it’s gotten worse. Why are all of the problems in an echo chamber? Why haven’t we made any changes? And I think part of it is we have so much data, we don’t know what to do with it. And our leaders are conditioned to getting that data once a year, right? So you sit down, you get your employee engagement survey, and you’re like, “Okay, here are our problems.” And that’s a lagging indicator. So you’re looking backward. You’re not looking at the current environment you’re in. You’re not positioned for how that environment changes cycllically right now, sometimes on the daily. And so ultimately what we try to do is take a look at the relationship real time that employees have with a particular organization and then uncover how do you actually find people that want to be in that relationship. So for example, let’s say um shout out to our military community. We know that if you are in the military or you’re a military spouse, that is a challenging life, right? I have a a cousin who’s a lieutenant colonel in the army. They’ve moved no less than 15 times. And that’s really challenging all over the world, right? Two young kids. Why do I bring that up? Because for many people who are looking to get into a relationship with someone in the military, that is just part of that relationship. It is an expectation like, hey, if I’m going to have a career in the military, this is what my life’s going to be like. You need to know that and be comfortable with that. That’s why we collect the data we do on the employment relationship because if we can help organizations understand, here’s what your relationship looks like today. Let’s be really authentic about it and let’s make sure everyone’s really clear what kind of relationship they’d be getting into at this company on multiple levels. >> You know, at the organizational level, the leader level, the the colleague level, and then the work level. >> And let’s make sure you’re okay with it. >> So you don’t waste our time, we don’t waste your time. It’s not just authenticity, it’s reality. It’s getting into the depth of it and what it’s really like. You know, it’s like not just saying like first date, what’s the problem? Why is this guy single? He seems amazing. And then, you know, 10 dates later, you’re like, oh, now I get it. It’s trying to get that out on the front end as much as possible and uncover it. >> Sure. >> So, people become pleasantly surprised instead of overly disappointed. >> Look, so I love that you’ve connected dating to to this to the talent space because I’ve often said this is like uh you know uh the the pathway to marriage, right? like the application is, you know, the first swipe uh and then, you know, ultimately you walk down the path. But the the interesting thing is those insights that you’re bringing to the table about the reality, right? And I love that you said it’s not just authenticity. This is reality. There’s things that employers need to know about the audience, um the demographics, the life challenges, the life realities of the candidates that they’re trying to attract. And conversely, candidates have to know or should should certainly be uh shown what reality is like as an employee in this organization. I think we focused a lot on that part, but not the part that you mentioned around uh companies becoming more not only self-aware but empathetic to the c uh candidate reality. The interesting thing and I think I would love to hear your perspective on this drawing all those insights out through the data collection that you do on the front end to then shape an employer brand narrative. What what [clears throat] have you seen in terms of companies now responding to those insights and then you know being intentional about either leaning into or making the shifts across functionally where they need to to change and meet more of that aspiration and bringing that into reality. Yeah, I think the shift is in the complexity of a relationship. Human beings are very complex, complicated individuals. And in the early days of employer brand, some of you that have been doing this for a long time probably remember back in the early 2000s, I think it was Bane that invented this fourb block. And it was let’s find out through research at your organization what do you do really well right in terms of delivering an employment experience and then what do employees actually want. And so what it created was a floor block where the top right corner was we do this really well and our audience wants it. Right? Candidates want these things. And then you know some of the blocks were the other three blocks were things we don’t do well that candidates don’t want. Great. We can ignore those things. things that we do really well but candidates don’t care about. Okay, great. Maybe we lower our investments and then the things that we don’t do well but candidates really care about, we should look to fix those things strategically. It was a great start. It was very strategic. It was very focused on let’s break down what we should sell. The challenge and how that’s evolved is that that’s what laded up into the original version of value proposition. Let’s sell the four or five things that are great about working for this company. The problem is that works really great when you’re trying to sell a phone, right? Or a piece of technology. When you’re trying to sell volume and mass and you’re hitting at customer needs on a very even level, right? Like when you think about what you really want in a phone, the majority of customers kind of align on those things. That’s how Apple makes decisions. That’s how, you know, all of the the companies make their product decisions. Humans are different. We all have really different needs at really different times. So you put 20 health care workers in a room, let’s say nurses right now, put them in a room. Some of the needs will be similar, but as you start to kind of peel back the onion, if you will, depending on where they live geographically, depending on who they are as humans, what they want in their lives, what do their families look like, what do they personally value, where are they on the political spectrum, all of those things. Now the differences are multitude and so it becomes really important to think about the employer [snorts] brand not just as a surface level of four or five attributes to sell but rather how do you actually position them and I’ll give you an example if we break down the research that you might do into what do you like about working for the organization? What’s that relationship like? What about the relationship you have with your leaders, the relationships you have with your work, and the relationships you have with your co-workers? And you break it down. You might find that there’s some segments that value certain things in those layers or in those dimensions different differently, then that’s where the fun is because then you can tactically adjust your campaigns. If you’re running a campaign in for nurses, let’s say in the Midwest, and you find that in this particular area of the Midwest, they really care deeply about colleagues, then you can adjust the campaign to hyperfocus on those things. And particularly with the advent of AI, that’s not hard to do anymore. If you find, for example, in other places, maybe for younger nurses, they care more about the organization, then you can adjust your campaign that way. But if you’re just focused on four things and you only adjust slightly for demographic or geo, you’re not actually getting at the complexity of the human. >> That’s where it gets really fun. And that’s where you get focused to your organization instead of, you know, reading some Gen Z study and saying all Gen Z care about X when we know that that’s not true. You can really compete more effectively because you’re hyperfocused on your candidate and intersection intersecting with your organization. >> Oh, that’s so rich. you you actually answered the next question funny enough around is it a losing value proposition to only segment or to focus on uh a particular uh generation right and I remember you know not so long ago in the distant past millennials were up and coming to be the largest uh generation in the workforce and so there every every company was trying to figure out how do we you know appeal to millennials whether it was workspace whether it was perks and caused and all these other things and now we’re right back at it again with Gen Z and even Gen Alpha. Um, what are your thoughts there in terms of focusing on a generation at a time as a whole, right? But you clearly said that’s that’s the miss because you’re not getting into, you know, the the the nitty-gritty the the the nth degree details and the the I want to say dare say diversity within demographic cohorts. >> You know, it’s funny you ask. So yesterday, two of my colleagues delivered this really robust insights report on Gen Z to one of our Fortune 100 clients. And one of the things that was really interesting is the client called out how much more they like this study. They like we did one for them in 23. They really like that, but they like this one much better. And one of the reasons why is the one we did in 23 pulled from a broader study that we did on all of Gen Z. This one while we pulled outside outside sentiment and external research, it was a combination of external research of people who this organization would actually target to hire and internal Gen Z um you know individuals who um categorize as generation Z that are actually employed or have been employed in the organization in this particular program talent segment that we were studying. So the data was really specific to them and that’s what matters. It’s not necessarily that you want to ignore generations or that it’s, you know, all the same. It’s that Gen Z in this particular organization is experiencing in their day-to-day work a certain kind of work experience that you know this is a a company that is hospitality entertainment. It’s not healthcare. And so their experience is really different. So that allows you to target the questions. You can ask really specific things about their experience. And then you can ask external candidates how they would perceive that are they interested in this kind of experience. So, like years ago, for example, we did um a project with a cruise line and the data, right? If you, you know, you ask potential cruise line candidates, they have no idea what living conditions are like on a cruise ship for crew, right? But if >> they’re not great, [laughter] >> right? Well, if you can give them the detail, if you can say, “Hey, how would this experience be for you?” It doesn’t allow them to imagine it. You’re actually putting it in front of them. And then you can actually test later. Okay, you took the job. You’re in the experience. How does it feel now? Right. >> We very rarely have the opportunity to do that in our space and I wish I wish we did more of it. >> Yeah. That that sort of followup does the marketing match the reality, right? Like as a as a benchmark slash ongoing uh analysis of experience. Um that that’s absolutely brilliant and I think it’s funny. We all know it’s missing but yet somehow the industry has not moved anywhere >> to that point. That goes back, John, that goes back to what you asked earlier which is like you can’t move or make the case if you’re a manager level stuck in the corner of talent you know talent attraction and if you don’t have budget somebody posted on LinkedIn um recently and said you know you don’t need any budget to do employer brand and recruitment marketing and I was like oh >> I get it there’s a lot of you know soul practitioners out there that are that are plugging away and doing it on their own but you really do if you’re going to make move the needle if you’re going to make a difference you really do need to lobby for something because you at least have to have to have some data to get attention and you need money to collect data. >> 100%. And something you said I I’ll go back to it and then we’ll move on. But just this notion that you can’t uh sort of lump in an entire generation and then quantify or qualify an experience for that generation because contextually how they’re experiencing let’s say hospitality on a cruise line versus uh a headquarters environment in uh you know middle America. Same generation different environments that elicit different experiences. So you have to get down into the granularity and the context always matters. Brilliantly stated. I want to shift a little bit to a macro headline. Earlier this month of growth revised down by 911,000 jobs uh through March. Some would say that’s signaling an economy shaking uh you know in its boots. Let’s bring this into our world, right? So, less jobs um but yet we’re still seeing talent attraction and even employer branding um at the forefront of a lot of our uh clients conversations. How do we square those those circles, if you will? >> I think it it’s um it’s a challenge because it’s so complex in the macro environment that that we’re in, right? We would be remiss if we didn’t think about a lot of those indicators. You know, everything from politics to what’s happening economically um for organizations, things like the housing crisis or household debt increasing. And so, it’s impossible to look at it all um or to make just individual correlations. We’ve got to really think about the big picture. That being said, I think the needs are and often are and have been over the years, I know you’ve experienced this too, very industry specific. And so depending on where those industry needs are, right, of course we’re going to see a shift in tech with the advent of AI. There’s no doubt about it. Um, and then you’re going to see some industries that will always have a need like healthcare. I think the other really interesting challenge that we’re facing in terms of you know the attraction piece and why even when jobs are down we’re still seeing that is because there is so much disengagement and has been for so many years that you’re always going to see some level of turnover and you’re always going to see some necessity to making sure that as an organization you at least have a baseline um reputation that exists and you’re putting some investment into that and organizations even when they’re contracting they’re always growing in some places because contraction does require growth streamlining so there’s always some positions for the most part that are open and you know you also see a lot of shifts in terms of people moving what’s the average tenure of a CEO now it’s much I don’t know off the top of my head but it’s much lower than it ever was before >> yeah the bouncing that’s happening yeah the bouncing that’s happening is also indicative because every time you get a new CEO in, there’s a trickle down attraction effect, right, to the turnover of the team underneath because strategies change. So once you get a new CEO, the ELT underneath their strategies evolve and then beneath that and beneath that and every Fortune 500 company operates in this hierarchical way. Everybody wants to make their own mark, have their own voice, bring in their own people. So that cyclical nature I think will always bring us business. The difference is can we shift from being reactive to proactive? Can we save our organizations money and be more thoughtful by being proactive and that requires trust and the insights to to do that I think. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ll give you one more headline here and this is uh just out uh yesterday. So seasonal retail hiring is to fall uh to its lowest mark since 2009. Um, you know, we have a lot of retail clients, right, who do seasonal campaigns and hiring. Um, you factor that plus the rising cost of cost per application, right? CPA, I think numbers are up almost 27% this year. Um, where does employer brand provide the relief in your perspective, right, to some of these challenges? >> I think one is in thinking about work in a different way. You’re also seeing a decline. you know, there’s there was a rapid decline several years ago in college enrollment. That’s changed a little bit. But I think you’re you’re going to see anytime the economy tanks, you also see a big shift for entry- level hiring, right, from a university perspective because, you know, those folks can’t find jobs and really struggle. And so, I think what happens is you’ll see an opportunity for employer brand to say, “Hey, some of these careers that are typically seasonal could actually be really good opportunities for you.” So traditionally, right, your college student isn’t thinking, I want to go manage a retail store. That’s not a traditional career path out of a university. But now, as we see things like, you know, household debt increasing, for example, it’s going to be really important to think about how do I actually support myself and where is there a stable opportunity? So maybe instead of hiring all these seasonal workers, you’re actually creating more long-term career paths. So fewer workers, but they’re working more hours, for example. I also think we’re in a world where customer service has dropped tremendously. I don’t know about you, but everywhere from hotels to flights, I have seen a massive decrease in in service. Um, and there’s just fewer people. And so, I think organizations are also accepting that and they’re saying, you know what, my competitors aren’t differentiating themselves through exceptional service. Neither should I. Right? You go into a retail store, it can be really hard to find, you know, a particular um worker to assist you with something. So I think they’re also just accepting of that that people are going to buy what they need to buy. They’re going to suffer through it if there’s no good alternative >> and that’s I think a big shift that’s also happening that’s driving some of that retail. >> Um and then of course you know the the just the economic outlook. It’ll be interesting to see what the holiday season looks like here in the US. That’s right. >> Um because the economic outlook right now is not great but people do tend to rally around holiday time. So, you know, Black Friday might be a really important day this year for many Fortune 500 organizations, more so than it’s been since co >> That’s right. Yeah. We’ll be watching for sure. Um, and I think I think you’re you’re making a lot of great points around the shift, right? And so, we’re we’re seeing um, uh, AI uh, right? I think most of our favorite topics these days uh around AI and even in the customer service space, I know companies like 11 Labs are snatching up a ton of con contracts because of their AI voice uh platforms that now you might not even know if you’re speaking to a human because they’re that good. Um, additionally, um the pickup in um not the pickup, but the shift towards more long-term career padding. I love that you brought that up because some of our clients who are some of the uh largest in the world um a lot of the common themes that we hear is people started at the store, right? and now they’re in executive leadership. And there’s I I think we got away from that that pathway from like getting in and understanding the business from the ground floor. And there’s value and there’s honor and nobility in taking that career path through and working your way up versus you, you know, everybody going to get the degree and coming in at the middle or then rising through the ranks that way and never really understanding the business from the bottom up. Um I think there’s there’s positioning opportunity there, especially from a branding standpoint. But uh but look I I want to shift into into a major milestone uh for for you for Shaker um and that is the recent announcement of the acquisition of Exacquo and and here we are now um which I think uh from a founders’s perspective and now uh at this next stage in your journey talk to us a little bit about uh that that experience for you and and why this matters and and why now uh and what opportunities do you see uh in in the future? your stay here. >> Well, I’m I’m glad you asked. First, um our team, myself particularly, we’re just thrilled to be a part of the of the Shaker family and really excited about the opportunity. Um the organization has such an exceptional reputation and you know, at Exacio, we often competed against Shaker and I think some of our clients are are smiling broadly um because they recognize that and recognize all of the talent that exists between the the two organizations. For me, it’s a chance to complete that life cycle to be able to say, gosh, how do we take all of this great work we’re doing on the recruitment marketing side, in Martekch, in analytics, in programmatic, and how do we use data and insight then to drive that strategy and how can we keep collecting that really valuable data, understand from an insights perspective, how we can actually influence the employment experience because ultimately that’s why we all do this work, right? We want to make an impact. Otherwise, we might be in private equity or banking or, you know, something else. But I, you know, I’ve spent my life’s work focused, I always say, at the intersection of where business meets behavior. I started working when I was 13. I’ve had over 35 different jobs in my life. And the this sort of the the reason for working, why we work, the the desire to have purpose and make meaning is just so important. And so to help organizations be able to deliver that to employees is just tanamount. It always has been to me in the past almost 14 years at Exacio to our team. And now ultimately to be able to kind of close that loop and deliver full life cycle of services to our our clients together that’s really exciting um because beyond AI right the tech is really strong that exists in our space but to be able to provide that strategic support across the whole life cycle that’s something that I’m I’m really excited about doing. Absolutely. And everybody is thrilled. I think um our industry really stopped and took notice because uh two powerhouses coming together to advance what we’re doing in this space um is only going to be a net positive uh for those that we work with. Uh so really happy uh to call you colleague now. Um >> right back at you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so look, we’ve got uh a talent landscape that is moving very quickly um in ways that we’ve never se well, we haven’t seen in many many years. Uh I’d love to get your perspective on what’s next. Right. So, as we think about the frontier for employer brand, there’s a lot of opportunity for us to make improvements uh that impact the talent attraction um uh perspectives and the landscapes there. [snorts] What do you see? What what is the next frontier? Uh AI is the obvious, but even the use of AI, where do you see it going? >> I feel like we shouldn’t ask that question. We should ask that question of everybody and we should tell them they can’t say AI as an [laughter] >> I was I was thinking the same thing. And don’t use AI in your answer. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because you’re right. It is it is the obvious answer for me. It’s the antithesis of AI. It’s the strategic piece, right? Because ultimately all that’s going to do is level the playing field for everybody. If you introduce that technology, ultimately everybody has access to that technology. So what then differentiates you not just as a company from a business value proposition, but what differentiates you um from, you know, being an employer, what is different about your employment relationship? So for me, what I think is really next is organizations being willing to take the people risks, saying we’re going to differentiate ourselves in this way. And we’re already seeing a little bit of that. Not purposely, but I think organizations fell into it with this idea of return to office. Now, I’ve worked virtually for a long time. So, do you know I have a personal opinion about the the RTO mandates that organizations have? Sure. Do I want to return back to a corporate office 5 days a week? I personally don’t. But I do value the fact that organizations are saying, “Hey, this is we’re going to die. We’re willing to die on this hill, right? And we’re willing to say that this is how we’re going to differentiate ourselves. We’re willing to take that risk.” and then they’ll determine as an organization if that risk pays off or not. And so I think you’ll start to see more organizations say this is the only way we can differentiate ourselves is by saying we’re going to behave this way as a company. We’re going to treat our employees this way. So you then there were some organizations that said, “Hey, we see the RTO’s happening. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to double down on on having hybrid or having flex or whatever it is that we’re doing.” That’s where I think the future is is finding that unique niche so you can really truly attract people that are interested in that kind of relationship. And you know, it mirrors what we’re seeing in personal relationships, too. People are being much more open and honest, right? If you look at back to generation Z, they’re saying things like, “I don’t want to have kids or I don’t ever want to get married.” And they’re just putting that that stake in the ground. and no judgment on anyone’s choices, but the idea of being comfortable, being vocal about who you are and what your expectations are as human beings, we’re doing that. Um, and so I think you’ll start to see more of that from organizations as well. >> Absolutely. Yeah. No, that’s that’s that’s good. And yeah, no judgment, but a lot of these lot of these folks are like, I can’t afford kids, so no, because the rising cost of everything, there’s that. I either have to commute. I have to spend my money commuting or spend my money as a parent, >> right? >> And as a parent, I’ll tell you, I mean, you know this, right? Those those kids, they cost a lot. >> It is not cheap. Well, look, I I I love that we are um we’ve arrived at a point where uh I think we’ve got so much information for uh the listener who’s been um uh along on this journey with us to to consume and process. And I want to say before we close, I would love to uh get your perspective on this. So when we think about uh leaving uh our listener with something that they can uh put into practice right away, um what would you in terms of how they can elevate their employer brand work? What’s one piece of advice you would give our listeners that uh that they can take with them? >> Ask why. Every piece of data you get, ask why. ask for more information. If you’re working with a vendor or partner and they give you a piece of data, you know, maybe it’s one of the the job boards that you work with or maybe it’s a a vendor in your HR tech stack and they say, you know, x% of candidates are coming through this particular channel. Why? Dig deeper. Ask why. Don’t take data at face value. That’s going to separate you from everybody else, from your competitors and everyone else is getting the rich insights beyond just the data that’s put in front of you and questioning it. Actually making sure you understand it because you’ve got to then turn around and tell the story internally. You can’t tell story with data. >> People are like, “Wait, you can’t.” No, a story is made up of insights, >> right? So the data helps you to create the story, but it’s really the insights you glean. Those are the headlines. CEOs don’t need any more dashboards. They need a headline. They need a story and they need the supporting evidence. So you as a practitioner need to just ask why and keep asking why until it’s like, you know, my 8-year-old son, why, mom? Why? Why? Why? Until you’re blue in the face. Just keep asking why. >> Oh, that’s so strong. And then be able to answer why when asked. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, >> right. I love it. Thank Thank you so much for that rich insight. Uh thank you for this time. So, like I said, it’s a pleasure uh as a fan from afar for years and now I I get to be right up right up close and personal dayto-day side by side with you. Absolutely honored. Uh and thank you for being our first guest on a new season uh in a new entity of Shaker Unfiltered live at the Vision Lab. And for those who have joined us uh found value uh please do not hesitate to hit subscribe and the notification bell so you will get uh uh rings every time we upload new conversations that are driving helping you drive our industry forward. So until next time, we will see you right back here at Shaker Unfiltered. Take care.