The Vision Lab: Amanda Shaker & John Graham Jr. on Bold Employer Branding Strategies

[Music] Check. Check. 1212. So, hi everybody. Uh, I’m John Graham and, uh, VP of employer brand strategy, humanity, and culture at Shaker. And today I have Amanda Shaker. Hello. I am the chief creative officer here at Shaker and excited to be here. Listen, so we have a lot to talk about. Uh, employer brand is all the rage again. Sure is. seems to go in cycles. Yes. Um but I think we’re on a lot of calls and conversations and we hear this this difference between the two things that are employer brand and recruitment marketing. So I want to start there and give just the audience a taste of explain the difference if you can we just stress that there is a difference. There is a difference between employer branding and recruitment marketing and they’re being used interchangeably. So yes, I want to stress employer brand. An employer brand is quite literally the brand that an organization is as an employer. So it is not just the messaging that we use to attract, but it really should be this heartbeat throughout the organization that has radical acceptance through every element that touches an employee and it should be accurate. Yes. Yes. Yes. About who you aspirationally believe you are. Yes. But I like that. I think you know it should express and articulate your culture for sure. Uh it should resonate and uh and align with the employees actual lived experiences and then packaged in a way that is attractive, appealing, resonant, all those things. But then recruitment marketing, right? Uh we hear recruitment marketing, employer brand, EVP, all used synonymously. And then recruitment marketing just for the people. Um how would you package that or how would you exploit that? I mean I think it’s quite literally again how does one recruit? How are you bringing folks in and attracting them to your organization? Yeah. So I like the the tangible way is like uh brands can be set and defined the aesthetics the narrative but then like the recruitment marketing would be like a flyer for campus marketing things like that or uh a billboard or you the media brand is expressed to attract and recruit. Perfect. I love it. Uh, and I think that’s an important distinction because a lot of times the outcomes are different as well. They should be, right? Like I think a lot of times we’re hearing um, well, how many hires did we get off this employer brand campaign, which doesn’t Yes. Respectfully. Yes. Yes. Right. And so, if we’re being clear, recruitment marketing is the is the uh the job distribution. It’s getting the opportunities out there and more places for people to apply. that has metrics on the back end of that, right? Versus the employer branding which I think has more of the awareness and the visibility and they’re interconnected. We want to make sure that the messaging gleaned right from that employer brand work is being used to attract but also then if you think about the promise that you’re um the promise that you’re conveying to candidates through your recruitment marketing then it better be true throughout that experience. And right now I feel like and I do feel like there’s a shift but more often than not because TA is owning employer brand we’re missing some of those key elements to make sure that it’s reflective throughout that experience which certainly lends itself to another question. There’s a there’s a a debate right now going on in the space of where employer brand should sit. I wonder what your take is. Yes, I know you have a shockingly lean opinion on this. not I I don’t necessarily care where it sits, but I want to make sure that everyone has a seat at that table, that everyone is aware of this project, that is sold in, that’s excited to nurture it. We were recently on site at a client, and I keep repeating this over and over, but the employer brand has to be lived from top down, bottom up, and middle out. That to me was like mic drop. We’re we’re done here. This client gets it. Yeah. Shouts out to Silicon Valley Middle Out for those who remember. That’s true. Um I I couldn’t agree more. And I love that you’re you’re being inclusive in that, right? So, everybody should be at the table. Everybody who touches brand, who touches talent, touches comms. Yes. Bring everybody in. But I’ve noticed, and this is speaking as both a practitioner and now on the other side as a consultant, when Brian sits in talent, the rest of the organization sort of looks down, right? Only because they don’t see that it’s more than just a a recruitment tool or uh a talent only kind of thing, right? But when when I’ve seen it sit in comms or branding or marketing, it comes with a little bit more ump and credibility. um you’re working with leadership that understands branding at at its core level, then they just have bigger budgets. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, yeah, I think there’s an argument to be made about where EB will sit going forward uh as they do expand it beyond just a talent uh attraction play. Yeah. And I think from a metrics perspective then it can be awareness, sentiment lift, engagement versus did we drive butts and seats? Yes. Yes. Which is a perfect segue when we start to talk about business in I think oftentimes the only business impact that was seen from employer brand or expected was butts and seats. But let’s expand that if you would. What are some of the other things that branding can impact for the business? Reputation, ambassadorship, um just being advocates of the organization. A more engaged employee base is going to lead to better business results. Productivity. Yeah. Absolutely. Engagement. Refer retention. Yep. Comes back to recruitment. But but I also think from a bottom line perspective, if you have engaged employees, productivity, yes, sure. But also uh the creativity that comes out of that, the innovation. Um and the pride because people want to work for a place that they’re like proud. Yeah. And I think customers want to support an organization that treats their people well, that is known as being a good employer. You know, there’s there are boycots of if they if there’s a toxicity within that organization, folks are, you know, looking elsewhere to where they want to, you know, put their put their money. Right. That’s right. And engagement scores won’t always show that. Mhm. it might, but it’s not always the the leading indicator there. Um, so I love that. I think um there’s there’s a there’s two words that when we hear from sort of a branding perspective when we’re having conversations, we just did the research, we’ve presented the research, and then an executive without fail will always say two words. Where’s the tagline? There it is. There it is. For a thousand, tell she Yes. Where’s the tagline? uh from a creative standpoint uh if building a brand when is the right time to expect a tagline or should you expect a tagline at all? I don’t think it needs to be expected. I think we often include one and it is really important and it does help um drive the key part of the campaign um or of the concept. But I care a lot more about ensuring that the overall look and feel and how we’re bringing that research to life is accurate and engaging. And yes, the tagline is important, but there’s so many other elements and how we’re storytelling and how we’re driving that through all of the touch points. It it makes me die a little when when the only bit of feedback is, so do you have tagline? like I just presented all this six months eight months worth of read. Yes. But where’s the tag? Yes. Off I died. I died twice. Yes. Um No, I I I love that. And I think that the brand is bigger than a tagline. I think often times we get so used to like the catchy jingle or the the the compelling hook to to be memorable like a consumer. But that’s not necessarily how you should package your culture. It’s cool if it works out that way. Yeah. But don’t like force it. Mhm. So awesome. I think we have time maybe for a question from uh from the audience. Great. All right. So, we we got a question in from uh from an audience uh member. Uh Kate P from Cincinnati wants to know, “What are we seeing in terms of let’s say the future of this landscape that is EP?” I love Kate P from Cincinnati. That’s a great question. She’s great. Needs her own shop. I think we’re seeing a shift over to Corpcom and we’re seeing more people at the table at the onset. Yeah. In the last few years when an employer brand for us in our in our experience has kind of derailed or uh stalled, it’s when we were at activation point and other disciplines were brought in without being uh aware of it in the beginning. So I think we have more folks now who are invested in this who are starting to see it and we were at employer global employer brand day and it definitely seemed like overseas they’re ahead of us so there are a lot more of you know those folks at the table and understanding the business impact of it. Yeah. Yeah. I I I couldn’t agree more. I think to your earlier point about bringing people in, you know, uh bringing everybody to the table, especially when we think activation cuz far too often you might see beautiful uh deep insights and research, beautiful creative, phenomenal and and deep uh narratives. Then how do you bring it to life, right? And and that is going to take the lift, the buy in, the support, um the budget in some cases from other functions within the business. So comms is a big player in that because they they are the voice of the company. Yeah. Um so I I love that you’re seeing that. I’m also seeing from a tech perspective AI being in every conversation at conference. What are you seeing in terms of innovations there? I think a few years ago we were seeing HR tech more as a recruitment play. So help with scheduling really freeing up recruiter time which is excellent. And now we’re seeing that as also being a way to text with the bot to understand what the culture is, what the benefits are. So really helping also being a voice for that and bringing that to life. I can even imagine that recruiters are becoming more tech enabled, right? leveraging AI for creating message even visuals for those who are more savvy thinking through their strategy where you know that could be a uh something for us to lean into even developing prompts delivering different innovative ideas that that integrate with how they’re using tech as well as but I I couldn’t agree more I think AI is disrupting a lot of things um but it’s also enhancing uh more I think yeah and we’re seeing CRM being much more strategically utilized ized. I think before it was seen as a nice to have and they would kind of push out evergreen content, but now we’re seeing as much more thoughtful drip campaigns really following uh the talent pool throughout the journey trying to get to conversion. One piece also we’re talking about who the folks are at the table and where it sits. I think often we’re trying to see what it is that we want to put in front of a candidate, which is super important. What are the storytelling opportunities and and employees? what do we want to make sure that we’re leveraging and dialing up in terms of what makes the organization great? It also showcases a lot of opportunities. So when we’re getting the research and we say what attracted to the organization, the learning and development opportunities, the mentorship, and then we read exit data and we’re seeing a lot of folks are leaving for greater mentorships for internal mobility. When we’re able to see those gaps between what was promised and perhaps what that experience is or even what’s not being communicated well because in some cases folks have great programs and people are leaving because they don’t know about it. Yes. So, while it’s great to see a lot of the benefits and differentiators of an organization, it really can also be seen as some of those gaps that we might might want to make sure that we’re also addressing in terms of internal communication. Yeah, that’s that’s one of the I think there’s still a lot of room to evolve into that uh maybe through education. I think that’s still a big thing as well because fact of the matter is there is no curriculum for employer branding and recruitment marketing at a college level. So most of the people in this space didn’t go to school for it. But those who went to school for marketing or uh comm’s concentration like that’s their jam. That’s what they do. And so this sort of outsider why are you in my sandbox kind of vibe is still there. It is it is lightening because I think uh executives are starting to wrap their arms around it a bit more so that everybody else has to. Um but there’s still some some work to be done in terms of getting the um getting the understanding levels I think of what we do and how it benefits even internal comps and internal comms I feel like now especially postco we have hybrid we have in office we have remote everyone is gleaning their information through different disperate ways so all the more reason to make sure that we’re understanding where folks are getting their information and ensure that we’re addressing it fantastic Okay, I want to I want to ask before we wrap because I know your time is precious. What is the What is the thing keeping you awake and excited? A lot of things. I left it broad. Employer brand. Uh two small children. Okay. Employer brand space. Awake and excited at night about employer brand. I would say two things keep me awake. One is do we have the I’m going to I’m going to sound like a broken record. Do we have the right people at the table? Because this can be incredibly powerful. It also takes a lot of investment of money of time and if it gets off the rails, it’s really going to put make all of that for not when if we’re with everyone on board, it really can be this powerful tool. So that’s one. Um the other piece is really focusing on the candidate and what that employee experiences and ensuring that we’re really being authentic in driving what that message is throughout the entire journey. It is always I always get a little bit nervous when we are presenting to leadership what our findings are and leadership doesn’t like what they hear and so and that that makes things a little bit tricky or they want to change it or you know we’re missing this this big element and so we always want to make sure that pieces are accurate um and aspirational. So not just thinking of talent for today but the talent that you need for tomorrow. So, um, ensuring that we have given them the confidence that we can create that balance and that changing this, um, changing the findings, adjusting it, leaning too far into aspirational is is really going to be a disservice and and make all of the work, um, a little bit useless. I mean, I could I I have nothing to add. That was fantastic. Well, Amanda, thank you for stopping. Thank you. The vision lab day one day one voyage. Uh, and thank you all for tuning in. Uh, be sure to head over to shaker.com, follow us, like, share, subscribe, do all of the things that help us get more of this to you. Yes. And please submit any questions or topics that you want to make sure that we cover in the vision lab. Awesome.