The Future of Collaboration: AI, Bias, and Innovation w/ Amanda Greenberg — Shaker Unfiltered S2 E2

In a traditional eight-person meeting, three people do 70% of the talking. It’s called this loop of doom of collaboration. It gets worse as the group gets bigger. With balloon, we see really high engagement and participation. So, anywhere from 82 to 99%. Those pieces were surprising for us that when people have a space to share, it’s streamlined. They know it’s kind of this level playing field. They contribute in a different way. They share information in a different way without maybe as much as many disclaimer. they share things with more freedom or or voice. Um, so that’s been super interesting. >> This is Shaker Unfiltered, where we break down the full world of recruitment marketing from talent attraction and employer branding to martekch and analytics. Join us for real stories, bold ideas, and practical insights that help you stay ahead and take your talent strategy further. Let’s get into it. >> All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Shaker Unfiltered. I’m your host, John Graham, VP of innovation, inclusion, and growth at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. And listen, today we have got a amazing guest. Uh our guest is Amanda Greenberg. Uh she is the co-founder and CEO of Balloon, a researchbacked collaboration platform that helps teams kill group think, unlock buried ideas, and make better decisions in far less time. Before she was building software for some of the world’s biggest companies and pro sports teams, Amanda was a public health researcher in DC, designing national behavior change campaigns for agencies like oh, I don’t know, the CDC and the EPA. You know, work that turn that turned her into an expert on how group dynamics warp information and stall real progress. With Balloons, she’s taken that science and turned it into a platform used by organizations from Microsoft and Disney to MLB front offices where anonymous structured flights surface the bold ideas and honest feedback most leaders never actually hear. In this conversation, we’re going to dig into the origin story of Balloon, why our current meeting culture is fund uh fundamentally broken, how AI changes the collaboration game, and what all of this means for recruiting, employer branding, and the future of work. If you care about building teams that think clearly, move fast, and actually listen to the people doing the work, you’re going to get a lot out of this one. So without further ado, welcome Amanda to the show. Hey friend, welcome. >> Hi John. Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. That was awesome. >> Listen, it’s your lived experience, history, and resume. So thank you for doing it. >> Yeah, I’m excited about it. I’m excited about this conversation. >> For sure. For sure. So look, um, you have an amazing background. um you’re doing amazing work. I want to first just give you give you a chance to intro um some of the things that you’re you’re doing right now with Balloon uh an amazing amazing tech platform uh seeking to solve some big challenges. Yeah, I mean the intro covered so much of it, you know, just so much of of what we’re building. And our mission is really to change how teams and organizations collaborate, how we make decisions, um by eliminating group think, and all these really costly group dynamics that cost companies and teams billions and bad decision-m, stalled innovation, lots and lots of wasted time, comes down to things that we’ve all experienced. So louder, more senior voices, dominating conversations, people holding back their best ideas, their most valuable authentic feedback because of fear, fear of failure, fear of judgment, a lack of psychological safety, and introverts and others just um not sharing what’s there. And all of it resulting in uh leadership that’s not empowered to make decisions, doesn’t have all of the insights necessary to make decisions. Um, and so that’s the core of our our mission is to help teams and organizations solve problems, amplify unheard voices, cut through all the things, all these human pieces that get in the way. Um, and and we have big goals and big big plans in all of these different areas. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I got I got to wonder um so you walk away from this lucrative and budding career in in public public re public health and research, right? But there was there was a catalyst. There was this thing that was like, you know what, this nobody’s addressing this and I’m going to go fix this. What was that moment for you? >> Yeah, it was very much like one of those, you know, typical moments that people talk about, like a shower moment, you know, where you just get this idea, you see it, you can’t unsee it. I had planned to go to medical school, so I was going to work in public health for a bit. I went to graduate school for public health and I wanted to be a public health physician, work on big systems, problems, um systemic thinking within our world and looking at how we solve those different problems. But in that work when I was a researcher um I noticed that uh people shared ideas or really important information through back channels. you know, even when I put kind of tools out there, I would schedule meetings, I would have focus groups, I would run surveys, and people would still come directly to me and be like, “Hey, I didn’t know if this was the right idea or I was intimidated by other people in the room.” And then I really started thinking about everything that goes un unheard and unsaid in companies and in teams and how leaders get in these truth bubbles and they don’t get what they need out of teams. And this isn’t even just inside an organization. This happens when people are communicating with their um partners or their customers or their consultants. There’s just this um really closed off way because of how we are as humans, how protective we are, how we want to fit in, you know, all the tribalism, all these different pieces of how we operate. And so I dug into the research and not in just one area but across the board, you know, hundreds of different research um studies and articles and really started to see that everything that we do just doesn’t align with what we really should do as humans to operate the best. And in a world that’s so focused on optimization, good decision making, hearing from people, getting the most out of your people, we continue to collaborate and make decisions in a way that doesn’t align with what we know is best. So sought to build a platform that was flexible and could be used across industries and very horizontal across use cases and group size and time and all these different pieces. Um, and so it was that catalyst moment. Dug into the research, couldn’t unsee it. Haven’t looked back. Um, yeah. Never regretted or or thought through kind of another option once I once I dove in here. >> So med school’s off the table is what I’m hearing. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, not happening. Not happening. >> Right. Right. So So I mean that’s a big leap, right? That’s I just want to back up to the origin story a little bit here. So you’re in a job, you’re doing like good work, but then you know going into a founders’s path uh is is not is not easy, right? For those who, you know, think, you know what, I’m just going to go start my own. Uh >> her face says it all, folks. For those listening, it’s a it’s a very cautionary headshake and eyes open wide. >> I I want to hear a little bit about that transition for you. Um especially, you know, going from something that felt secure, right? obviously and then getting uh doing what I think some is the hardest work is getting VC funding and getting backed and then building a a company. >> Uh tell us a little bit about that transition in in your work journey as well. >> Yeah, I always say that if you’re not 100% on your your idea or what you want to build, if you don’t think it’s your life’s work, don’t do it. Like it’s just too challenging. It’s so challenging. I think that everyone has a calling or something that really speaks to them. Um, and you know, when you find that, if you really dive in, then you know, I think the world and the universe helps. It helps. You can feel your energy. People gravitate toward it. Um, you become unstoppable because you can’t unsee it. You don’t think about anything else. You obsess about it. And that makes it um, you know, easier. But it’s not easy. It’s filled with endless friction, endless challenge. The world kind of has a way of operating and you’re inserting yourself and you’re saying, “I want to do this thing differently. This should work differently and you have to get people to see that vision and see what it can do for them.” And you know, people always say that a journey in entrepreneurship is really a journey in and it’s so true. Like you learn so much about yourself and how you respond to challenge and adversity and the resilience necessary and how many times you can get back up. Um how many disappointments that you can face, how many, you know, things that seem like they should have been really easy were really challenging and things that seem like they would have been really challenging were actually quite easy. and learning those different things about yourself. Um, you know, it’s filled with a lot of different a lot of different challenges, but I think there’s no greater journey that’s really um kind of accelerated the way I even understand myself in this world. And, you know, my shortcomings as a person, my things that I work on, um, my strengths, you know, all those different things I think really come to the forefront uh, when you start something big or small, whatever that is, you know, just outside your comfort zone. Uh, I think the world rewards that risk. >> Oh, I love that. I love that. And listen, I think for those listening who uh find themselves at that that crossroads and thinking they want to go all in, uh you know, whatever that work is, uh where you think you can carve out your own path. Uh definitely take Amanda’s uh words to heart. Um, so, so that being said, you’re you’re out there, products developed, now you have to go get other people to believe in it, buy it, uh, all of those things. What was the first signal for you that that balloon is not only working, uh, but that there was a there there? >> Yeah, I mean, there were a number of different moments where I would say we thought, okay, like this is something’s happening here. Um, one was we uh flew across the c the country um to meet with a large media company and we had an MVP. It was just Noah, my co-founder, who’s also my husband and CTO. Um, and we had built this product, you know, just on our own. We weren’t funded at that point. Um, and we got this meeting and we flew across. We acted like we had a lot of other meetings lined up. We didn’t. We We flew just for that one. And we were in this room with 12 people. And we had never really pitched or sold it like that before. And so, you know, you have to dig deep. You have to learn all these things on the spot. You have to navigate a different way. And then they purchased. And I thought, okay, if we can do this with an MVP platform, the bare minimum, and one of the largest companies in the world sees the value in it, one of the most creative companies understands it, then there’s something here, and we can do it. And when we started um going to secure funding and fundraising, the investors were shocked that we were able to sell um you know what we had without funding and that we were kind of I don’t know we had enough kind of just you know courage to go do that but we really wanted to know would this work and then there’s a few other moments where we got angel investors who we really uh wanted to get who we really valued you know who had been founders who have grown unicorns concerns um and they understood it and they got it and they got us. And so that was another kind of just validating moment on that side. And then I think the other biggest one is when you see your product be used. So when you see companies use it and you see them unlock new information or it streams lines pieces or it saves a ton of time and they’re shocked by the findings or improves a decision like there’s no greater high as a founder or I think as a person when something you built and created is appreciated and utilized and provides value to the world. So, those were kind of the big moments that I think we thought, okay, like as long as we have customers who love us and uh you know, purchase and they’re delighted by us and our platform, then um we can do this. >> What a rich story. Um and I’m sure there’s so many other layers you could go down to uh in in taking us through that journey, but um I’m in I’m I’m ready for the book. Um I think I think let’s let’s let’s shift a little bit. So, so Balloon is out there. Um, you know, we’ve we’ve worked with Balloon uh on a bunch of client projects as well. So, I have seen firsthand how powerful this is. But I I want to for for the novice or the or the new to the to the conversation for Balloon, the core problem uh as I see it uh that you’re solving for is um really how to get the best information from a broad swath of employees. let’s say as far as employer brand research >> um and uh collaborating in a way that removes sort of the group think right um and and elevates ideas that resonate I think anonymously or asynchrously >> but I would love to know just from what you’ve seen what what your data shows you um when it comes to group think and biases and decision-m what are you seeing as like the prominent or most consistent biases or group decision uh group think decisionm um challenges inside companies. >> Well, there’s hundreds and hundreds of different types of cognitive biases and there um costs within an organization varies um you know depending on kind of what that structure of organization is, what the problem they’re looking for. But what we looked at are what are the most costly cognitive biases? What are the biases that are um most prevalent and that we’re most seen? and we looked at those and dove in there. So, uh group think of course so where everyone gravitates toward um the group and there’s no one kind of dissenting from that opinion or sharing hey this is an issue and there’s very famous case studies and examples of this in history tied to you know personal safety, human safety, government decisions, um organizational decisions. We’re all I think pretty familiar with how harmful group think is and you see it every single day in meetings. Someone shares says something everyone starts to cluster around it and it becomes harder and harder the bigger the group for someone to say hey I don’t think that this is right or like can we look at this a different way so group thinks a big one also called bandwagon effect. Um, other biases that we look at are anchoring bias. And anchoring bias is where the first idea or the first piece of information confines or limits or influences the rest. Another thing we see every single day in meetings. Someone asks a question, the first idea that comes out takes a huge amount of time in the discussion or anchors the rest of the conversation. Um, there’s been research around this where if someone says blue, everyone else says sky or ocean. And so just our brains look for that connection based on what’s first shared. So um with balloon we really focus on how do you get more broad diversity of perspectives in responses to a question without anchoring what’s first said in the discussion. Um other pieces around um different relationship biases. So you know hippo the highest paid person’s opinion. Um, you know, when you see someone share something in a meeting, um, or you have a relationship with someone, you’re going to view their information that they share either through a more positive or more or a more negative light. Um, so all of those different place, all those different, um, pieces contribute. And then, of course, all of our different implicit biases, all of our stereotypes that we make around people based on their identity, their ethnicity, how they show up in the workplace, their age. I mean all of these different pieces influence how we receive information from someone, how we look at it through this lens. And so with balloon, we really sought to eliminate those pieces so that the information and the ideas and the feedback are leading so leaders are empowered and groups are empowered to look at that information and receive it without barriers and biases getting in the way. And our goal is to really drive an insight mo insight mobility um an insight mobile culture where insights are moving freely without biases without barriers and getting to where they need to get. So those are some of the biases that we look at. There’s obviously so many other ones that we’ve thought through and are built into various pieces of the platform. >> Absolutely. So to I mean to that end like let’s let’s walk our our listeners to uh through uh a flight right >> and what happens within a flight >> inside balloon. So you’ve got you know uh from the moment a leader says I need to uh get input on X >> uh to the moment they leave with uh decision and buy in. What what does that process look like for for those who don’t know? Yeah, a flight is a shared collaborative workflow. It’s structured around a set of open-ended questions. Um, we’ve partnered with over 50 leaders, researchers, and experts like Adam Grant, Daniel Pink, Amy Edmonson, etc. to co-create templates and platform because of course, how we ask questions also biases biases and influences um how people respond. And so you can start with one of our templates. You can also create your own um but a set of open-ended questions and then you invite a group, a really great group that you want to work work with or bring this team together to solve this problem, have this discussion, whatever that team looks like inside or outside your organization. And you go together through these stages. And there’s two stages. The first one is where you’re going to anonymously contribute and collaborate. You’re going to put in your ideas. You’re going to discuss them. And then everyone moves over into stage two. And in stage two, you’re going to pump up the balloons, the ideas that you like, support, want to see move forward. We use an approval voting system. Um, and throughout that flow and process, we’re doing things that eliminate these biases that I walk through. So, group think and anchoring bias. We’re providing psychological safety. We’re ensuring introverts and others are engaged in the process. And we’re also just streamlining, making sure you get full diversity of perspective. You’re tapping into your team. And then at the end, you get this surfaced and prioritized list of top ideas, top pieces of feedback, and you’re able to see where you have alignment, where you don’t, which is just as important a piece of information as a leader where you can say, “We’re actually not aligned at all on this, or there’s a lot of remaining questions or discussion around that.” So, you are then empowered to either make decisions or to have additional conversation or a hyperfocused conversation or discussion. Um and then we also do things with AI and content analysis and reporting to look either within a flight or across flights and identify what are the key leadership insights, what are some recommended actions you can take based on what’s surfacing, what are maybe additional areas or um places where you should run more flights to um extract more information from the team. Um and so we we do kind of that piece at the end as well of the flight flow and process. >> Yeah. um to say the least and and I think with that the natural question is well what kind of outcomes have you seen as a result uh you know what kind of decisions were were were made or what led to a better strategy um that possibly couldn’t have been arrived at had they not used balloon what have you seen that surprised you >> there’s I mean there’s so many things one of the we we dug in uh and did some early kind of research around flight results and we saw that 80% % of what’s shared on balloon is brand new or has a nuance around it. So it goes unspoken within an organization or it’s presented a different way or maybe has a different level of support. So I think just across the board I think that’s super interesting that you’re hearing from more people and then you really have also high engagement. So in a traditional eight-person meeting three people do 70% of the talking. It’s called this loop of doom of collaboration. It gets worse as the group gets bigger. With balloon, we see really high engagement and participation. So anywhere from 82 to 99% kind of depending on if it’s a live or an asynchronous flight. Kind of overall those pieces were surprising for us that when people have a space to share, it’s streamlined. They know it’s kind of this level playing field. They contribute in a different way. They share information in a different way without maybe as much as many disclaimers or they share things with more freedom or or voice. Um, so that’s been super interesting. And then we’ve seen, of course, all of these different decisions made within organizations, which is just fascinating. You know, we have companies and organizations that say, “We already have a really open culture. We have a really transparent culture.” And then they they run a flight or two, and they are shocked to see the results and how much more there is for people to give. People want to contribute. They want to share. They want a place to share. Um, and they want to have input into decisions. you know, they’re seeing things every day. So, we’ve seen um we’ve seen uh changes in how products are built. We’ve seen changes in go to market strategy. We’ve seen changes in onboarding processes. Um we’ve seen uh adjustments and big changes in strategy and how things are being done. And then on the sport side, we’ve seen uh player decisions uh that have been have been shifted or changed. you know, what happens in the draft and scouting. Um, you know, really leveling out those different pieces, removing that hierarchy, coming to the table with people doing some pre-work on balloon and just having a better conversation versus maybe a more senior leader or a GM kind of driving that. Um, so that’s one of the most exciting things is some and sometimes it just aligns like a leader feels like I’m already, you know, I’m on the right track and then they feel more empowered. maybe they can execute and move faster which I think is just as important than than shifts. >> It’s really important intelligence I think to have either way right whether there’s confirmation of strategy you’re already on versus >> I’m way off need to course correct now before this costs hundreds of millions of dollars potentially. >> Um but that’s really good to have. You mentioned AI so I have to bring it back there. It’s one of my favorite topics. I I think we’ve reached this point with our relationship with AI where like for the past three years it’s been like okay we’re tired of AI and now it’s like getting really exciting because >> AI is finally to a place where it’s actually gamechanging. >> Yes. >> Um and so I would love to get your take on everything from like the AI gold rush to where balloons uh you know hanging its hat in the AI space agentic use all of these things. But I I’ll start by asking you >> um knowing that balloon is built on uh a rigorous research methodology and specifically human behavior and collaboration. Um as AI explodes, what do you think people are getting wrong about AI for collaboration right now? >> Well, I think AI is going to be so impactful. It is so impactful. It’s going to be so impactful. Whenever I see the research that’s coming out around how, you know, this the the small percentage of people in our country and beyond that are utilizing AI and how they’re using it, it’s still so limited in scope. And I think for those of us who are using it or who are in technology, we just see the power of it and we see where it’s going and what it can do and how it can be harnessed and leveraged in such a powerful way. I think that um with with Balloon and how we’re thinking about it in our platform and some areas that we’re going to be building out is all around, you know, obviously we’re unlocking this new data stream that’s currently locked in people’s heads. It doesn’t exist out there because of all these different biases and things that get in the way. So just amplifying that, you know, how do we tap into even more? How do we get that information to where it needs to go in an organization even faster? How do we get more depth? How do we tease out more? Um, and then a piece that we’re going to be working on more is around decision infrastructure and insight infrastructure within an organization. So, how do you unlock everything using balloon and incorporate it into all these other data streams that exist inside a company and beyond to just amplify that? Um, and we’ve started some of that exploring that with some of our some of our some of our current clients and partners, but there’s so much to do there. Um, and it it is really exciting. Um, and it’s it’s changing, you know, it’s changing so much and old rules don’t apply. It’s very much the wild wild west. Um, there’s so much to learn. There’s so much evolution to happen. um which of course comes with its own risk and all these different pieces. But I think leaning into um opportunity and what we can do as a world with new technology I think is is really powerful. >> I couldn’t agree more. It’s it just reminds me they they didn’t call it the common stable west. It was called the wild wild west >> for a reason. Yes. and it is very much the wild wild west out here right now. Um, so it sounds like you have a a really good uh roadmap and I think even when I look at like the landscape of the amount of tools that are coming out uh specific specifically around AI >> either enhanced or augmented meeting tools >> right that record, summarize, transcribe um you know content and then you know provide u summaries and so forth. that I I see your work is more about um changing the structure of collaboration really >> not just capturing it. >> So So how do you see these two worlds colliding right where it’s like okay more people are leveraging tools to capture but the insights layer is still necessary. >> Yeah. I mean I think that we have to tap in more and adjust how we operate like like you said John like the process kind of um how humans collaborate and that happens you know not only in an organization but beyond how we make decisions as a society I think there’s room to um really uh play into that area as well. So as we think of insight infrastructure, as we think of decision infrastructure, you know, how do you unlock all of this information, how do you incorporate it with other areas and other pieces of information like meeting notes within an organization, calendars, other data streams that people are using, um, email, Slack, what you know, Teams, whatever these pieces are where there’s other collaboration and communication happening. How do you look across all of that and see where there might be different biases happening, where there might be um people deferring in a certain way, people going through kind of bad decision-m practices, and how do you make adjustments there? So, we’re thinking kind of beyond even unlocking this new data stream, um but how do you kind of model all of that out and look at that? And I think there’s so much opportunity there. Um because it’s all it’s all around like how to how to leverage how to leverage people. How do we leverage ourselves? How do we leverage our teams? Um you know people want to contribute. They want to create. There’s even more of a desire for humanness and authenticity. And I think that’s going to become um even more important in in this evolving world. >> Absolutely. So I believed in that so much so that our um our a AI um uh practice at Shaker is called human plus. >> I love that. It’s perfect. >> So right so so we are really positioning the human and the humanity first and leveraging the technology and tools as compliment not surrogate. So >> uh so I think you bring up some really good points. I think a lot of people are looking at where they can add AI. Um, where do you think or where does Balloon think that AI has no business being? >> Oh, I think about that a lot. I think because you know, you read something and you’re like this it’s going to displace this or there’s going to be this evolution this area and then I I’m sure just like everyone you sit on it and you think, okay, what would this look like? What would this be like? Is this actually possible? Does this actually feel additive? Is this a good replacement? You know, I think at the end of the day, we are like we’re humans, right? We’re humans. We look for trust. We look for belonging. We look for authenticity. We look for connection. I think there’s a lot of dangerous areas for AI to be introduced in. There’s, you know, we we know all those different places and ways. Um, and so, you know, I think that it has no kind of business there. I think it is going to have a lot of secondary harmful areas within our within our society, within our world. Um but you know but I think about where it can really be transformative. Um and I try to really view it through that lens of where it can provide a lot of a lot of value. Um but it’s you know it’s changing every single day and the limits of it are changing every day. people’s comfort with it. It’s changing um you know and also within organizations like just even decisions made around implementation of AI is varying so much not only within across industries but within um organizations within an ind industry you know some are much more comfortable have an easier piloting process um are early early adopters and others are slower and more hesitant and it’s kind of hard to know right now which path will really be rewarded. um as as we continue on. So, I think there’s a lot of different a lot of different ways. Wild Wild West. >> We’re going to have to see all these different pieces. >> 100%. I I think one of the challenges, it’s funny as I look at like how uh the adoption curve has been over the past >> gosh, what are we three years deep now? Um >> yeah, >> LGBT really went mainstream uh late no late 2022. Um so I I look at you know the the slowness to adopt even using an LLM because of fear of you know privacy which you know privacy or uh confidentiality and things of that nature absolutely warranted >> but then the acceptance of that right governance models around that fine now you’ve got like agents coming into the conversation about like >> whole different thing to where like just using a a prompt feels like kindergartener work like at this point. >> Right. Yeah. >> So, right. And this is only within the past like six months maybe. >> So, just as soon as somebody’s getting used to like one thing, it’s like, “Oh, yeah, hold on. Kill that. We’re we’re actually on to this next thing, right? >> So, so I I love that. And, and if I if I shift gears a little bit into like the employer, brand, recruitment, marketing space, which >> it’s what our audience uh is here for um and what we do and and and you’ve been on this journey with us as well. I I want to say speak specifically to the head of talent acquisition right now, right? Where we’re seeing a job market that is unprecedented or at least we haven’t seen in many decades >> um and a lot of talent trying to um make the best decision or be visible and and make the right decision for their next career moves or pivots. Um, but if you’re the head of talent acquisition right now and you’re trying to run a modern employer branding strategy, right, being visible, being relevant, >> um, uh, being, uh, informative, uh, for prospective talent or even retaining your existing talent, >> how would you encourage them to use Balloon or um, improve their their structured collaboration um, to figure out what their real value proposition is or should be? Yeah, I mean I think that there’s so much opportunity and you know we’ve seen this of course with with Shaker to use the platform to identify what your areas of strength are within your brand. Um how your brand’s viewed, how your employees see it and and maybe different areas within your employee base, how your brand’s viewed. Um what are areas how would you define this in, you know, using a phrase like all different kinds of flights could be run in that area. Um and then I also think there’s uh opportunity to get more insight into um like why someone chose to work somewhere, how that talent can be retained um and asking different running different flights within the organization maybe when people have been there you know 60 days 90 days a year um and gathering that information and then I also think there’s an opportunity to think about role evolution in this AI world and you know as roles are evolve evolving and people are shifting and how do you harness people to maybe fit into different areas within your organization? How do you encourage their talent? And I think if that’s an area that you feel is really strong within your your organization and within your brand, being able to elevate that and talk about it feels very very important right now. I think a lot of people are concerned about getting kind of slotted into a role that might not be as relevant in you know two to five years and how where are the opportunities for them to evolve their role to leverage their strengths. People have tons of strengths that no one knows about. That was another um kind of starting place for balloon is that because I was a researcher um oftentimes I wasn’t thought of as like as creative or brought into those conversations. And so how do you kind of cut through that as well? Um and where people are um and how they’re kind of slotted into roles as you think about your talent journey. >> Yeah. No, that’s really I think that’s super important. Um especially as the not only the job market but even the jobs within organizations are changing. Yes. >> Rapidly, right? >> Um some are being uh phased out, right? just purely by the advent of AI being able to do those jobs. But then also there’s a you know we’re seeing roles like um agentic manager uh newness right like that didn’t even exist 6 months ago >> and now we’re starting to see new roles created. So, I think that’s that’s a really good point about being able to uncover not only what um the value proposition is for uh for prospective talent, but also even internally and hearing what uh what may be evolving within the organization that maybe leadership didn’t have an eye on >> uh or or uh an ear for uh before. >> Yeah. I love that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think one of the biggest failures in employer branding, I’ll say, or challenges, I won’t say failures, uh, is when, uh, a company’s broadcasting a narrative that their own employees don’t actually recognize. >> Yes. Yeah. It’s and I and I know you’ve seen this. So when you when you think about some of the the the comparisons to the official story from the reality >> based on data that you’re getting back, how have you seen that help uh companies sort of like come about face and you know recognize, oh my gosh, there’s a gap here. Well, I think it’s so interesting because well, I’ve also seen it where people where companies think that their employees might share things that are more negative and it actually ends up being quite positive and that maybe they’re not doing a good enough job of telling and sharing how great their organization really is and how great their culture is and their brand and all these different pieces. Um, but I think when there’s that disconnect, I mean, it comes back to the conversation around authenticity and you really want there to be alignment. And so when you’re surfacing things and maybe it’s like a little course correct, you know, maybe it’s like we’re defining it as something, but it really should be something else, but they’re both positive. And so making sure that there’s kind of that thread and that theme throughout um feels really important. And you know, so much of this work can be done really manually with focus groups and these different pieces. With balloon, it really helps to streamline it and you’re going to also get just deeper insights to tell a more authentic story. So I think that helps to ensure that you don’t have that gap where you’re doing a lot of interviews or a lot of focus groups um but you still aren’t really getting at what’s there because it’s still personto person. How do you give people space to really share so you can do the work necessary to translate that into your your brand and and your value proposition? >> Yeah, I think um there’s an important story in that um that I think there’s a negative would be the obvious. People would assume the worst. uh which is which is why I think sometimes the engagement surveys don’t really you know >> I have my own personal thoughts about that but I but I want to ask really what’s your spiciest take there right in terms of how most companies run culture surveys or employee surveys um that um you know these listening initiatives which ultimately should be to get data that can help improve make changes change structure adjust strategy What would you say just objectively outside observer uh that that companies should rethink when it comes to those kinds of data collection uh efforts >> to get the best outcomes ultimately? >> Yeah, I mean I think that with a few things there and these are things that we looked at when we were developing the platform which is with surveying you know there’s typically one or a few people who are on the receiving end. It’s not as much of a team process. And that introduces a lot of opportunity for confirmation bias where you’re picking and choosing and aligning it with a very limited um group of people’s perspectives. And so you’re really not getting this full scope and this full team buyin. Um oftentimes as well there’s just no opportunity of course for collaboration. So uh you know we’re at the intersection of survey and collaboration and productivity. And so when you’re just collecting all this information, you’re not allowing people to strengthen each other’s ideas and perspectives and share um share them with each other to be able to bounce more ideas off. So I think that’s a big a big missed opportunity in that in that process. Um and then also the ability to uh claim your responses at the end of the process. So with balloon, it’s anonymous start to finish and then at the end you can put your name on one balloon or all your balloons. it’s really flexible and so that gives people the opportunity to get credit for what they contribute and so um with with surveying you have to kind of decide that at the onset you know or kind of all of your information at the end so there’s a lot of different shortcomings there I think that um I think there’s a place for some of that information and collection uh but I think that when you want to dive in I I think it’s complimentary when you want to dive deeper uh you want to really move into solution focused collaboration ation where you might see an area of weakness in a culture survey, an engagement survey and then you can dive in deeper. It’s replacing that kind of focus group stage. Um there’s another there’s another piece which is often times culture surveys also live kind of separate. They’re separate from the main flow of work. Our goal with balloon is to build in some of these practices and processes in our everyday work and opportunity. So you’re able to get a pulse in a sense that’s not just isolated um and living within uh you know a people operations area but more broad. Um but I think they’re complimentary. I think there’s areas and a place for all of these different different areas and pieces. Um but those are some of the I think it’s probably my spiciest take and those are some of the shortcomings that I that I see. >> That was very spicy, Amanda. Um I I appreciate that. Yeah. Listen, uh I I am loving this conversation, but I know you have things to do and places to be. Um so in in closing and parting, I would love to hear uh any hot takes, predictions, uh peaks around the corner uh in your work in the industry or general landscape. >> Oh man. Okay. Well, I think it’s all about evolution. I think that’s been a theme of the conversation. So there’s just going to be continuous evolution. Um I shared a bit about what we’re working on and where we see this space going. Um you know we we talk a lot about insight mobility and I I talked a bit about that. But I think that um how we make decisions, how we incorporate information, how we interact with AI and each other is going to be continuously um pushed. And I think we’re going to hit a lot of edge cases. We’re going to hit a lot of new things there. A lot of new challenges, a lot of secondary benefits and challenges as the world continues to evolve. Um, but I ultimately really believe in the power of people and the power of people to leverage and amplify and create and make. Um, and that is all very exciting to me. And I think it’s exciting for most of us. I think that’s our most human element is the ability to create and make. >> Yes. I I promise the audience I did not pay you to say the power of people. Our our employer brand tagline at Shaker Recruitment Marketing is connect to the power of people. >> Well, there we go. There we go. >> Look at that. Look at that, folks. >> It was in there somewhere. >> It was It was in there somewhere. I love it. Amanda, I can’t thank you enough for stopping by and and taking some time out to have a conversation with with me. Um, and really I appreciate uh all the work you’re doing um and the way that you’re seeking to move collaboration uh and insight uh collection um forward. Uh amazing work. Amazing work. >> Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, uh, for anybody who has, uh, not gotten a chance to check out Amanda, do so. Uh, where where can they connect with you? Uh, >> get ballaloon.com is our website. You can I mean, you can email me directly. Amanda getaloon.com. Um, yeah, >> I love that she didn’t even give you like the LinkedIn social handle proxy. Email me direct. >> Yeah, email me direct. I love talking to people. >> I love that. We’ll be sure to link everything out in the descriptions. >> And uh thank you all for joining. If you haven’t uh liked, subscribed, joined, done all of the ancillary button pushes you can do to make sure that you know what’s coming from us, please do so.