Live at The Vision Lab: Employer Brand Strategy Q&A

Hello everyone. Um, my name is Susan Lamont and we are live from the vision lab at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Um, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, uh, wherever you may be in the world. Um, I’m the VP of employer brand strategy here and I’m really excited for a conversation with my colleague Christine Temple today. Um I uh joined Shaker um in September when my company Exactly was acquired by Shaker and now we are really excited to continue to build the future of employer brand strategy here at Shaker. I’ve been in the space for about 30 years um in a variety of opportunities across the HR spectrum, but most importantly I always say I sit at the intersection of where business meets behavior. Ultimately, I’m have always been fascinated about the world of work and why people work and the motivation and energy that we get from work and that sits at the core of of what we do here at Shaker. Christine, >> thank you. I’m Christine Temple. I am the managing director, one of the managing directors on our employer brand strategy team here at Shaker. And I like to say that I built my career um in talent um thinking about strategies for talent um how to manage culture for talent um just all things really touching talent within an organization. So this topic to me today is incredibly interesting because whatever background you may have whether you are in talent acquisition you’re in diversity and inclusion you’re in culture you’re in talent management um if you’re a leader in the business so not even in a talent space you’re thinking about talent right now you’re curious about um culture and organization and people and the evolution of work all those topics are front and center and I’m excited to delve into all of these today with Susan um as we’re talking. Um, we have some things that are top of mind for us that we’re thinking about and we want to converse on while we’re here with you. But please do make sure that you share any questions that you’re thinking about. We’ll be monitoring um the live stream. So, as questions come in, we’ll make sure to look at those. We’ll leave some time at the end to answer those questions. So, keep them coming. Um, no question’s a bad one. We really would love to hear from you. Let’s get started and open it up with I think the biggest question um and the the foundational question that we have as practitioners and one that you have a really strong point of view on which is talk a little bit about the employment relationship and how is it changing right now with everything going on what’s changing >> I you know it’s interesting particularly in the state of the world the state of the economy the state of people’s personal lives their work lives there’s this big shift that happened after co that we all know right we don’t need to revisit that but that shift this idea of what we think about work and how work makes us feel and the role that work plays >> that has increasingly changed more and more since co and now that we’re more than five years out from that time what we’ve realized through our research through the thousands of hours we’ve spent um in talking to employees candidates all over the world at every level is that work is not a job anymore >> we are constantly renegotiating the relationship we have with work. >> What does that mean? It means that we don’t just show up for a paycheck. >> Yeah. >> And we’re conditioned as leaders, you and I have been in this space for such a long time. Everyone thinks, oh, raise pay, people will want to work more, right? Or work is all about pay and benefits. What our research tells us is it’s not. >> It’s actually this relationship where I am constantly evaluating what’s my relationship with my organization. Do I trust my CEO or my president? Do I trust him or her to lead the organization in a way that is going to bring me confidence and stability and I see a future for the company? >> Do I um trust my leaders and do I respect my leaders, my immediate boss and those above him or her? >> Do I respect that they’ve earned their role and do I respect the decisions they make even if I don’t agree with those decisions? Right. >> Um do I value my co-workers? Do I actually look to the people to the left and the right of me? Whether I’m on an assembly line, whether I’m in a store, driving a truck, right? There’s always co co-workers that you’re working with. Do I value them? Do I see okay, I see what they bring? And in turn, do they value me? Do they see what I bring? And then last but not least, do I actually care about the work, >> the thing that I do every day? Do I care about it? And do I believe someone is on the receiving end of my work and they care about it, too? And I think in the most interesting piece about all of this is not that it’s changed and all of a sudden it’s not just a job, it’s a relationship. It’s that it’s gotten more complex. >> And that’s I think the challenge for leaders is how do you think about this complexity, right? In the old days in HR, when you and I started in HR years years ago, I I won’t date us too much. >> Susan, not that long ago. >> I know, right? Five years ago. Um I won’t date us too much. When we did start, HR was a really different place. They were still using the term personnel, right? Or the human resources like gold plaque on the door and it was really about managing how people felt about work, right? In the sense of am I getting benefits? Do I have my, you know, my computer or the tools that I need to do my job? I mean, even the engagement survey questions we we answer now are legacy from that. And I think it’s challenging for leaders >> because leaders don’t necessarily understand how to lead in this sort of complexity or as things are changing. So >> yeah, >> I want to ask you particularly given your experience um as a global HR leader and leading multiple organizations, how do leaders lead when the relationship has changed when there’s so much complexity? >> There is so much complexity and there’s always so much on leaders. Um every leader that you talk to across times and generations will say this is the most difficult time or no this has been the most challenging time and and they’re all right right every time is difficult and every time is is challenging but what I would say in terms of managing the complexity is a couple of things I think first inherently as as as humans we don’t like change like I mean if you were watching and go I volunteer for change today like nobody volunteers for change but I think as leaders um and I I’ll lean more into the talent space for just a moment leaders in the talent base. I I think the biggest pivot that they can make is embracing their role as a consultant. And I’m not saying this because I’m biased and I am a consultant and have built my career and as a consultant for the most part, but the principles of consulting I think are paramount right now. So personal management HR in the past has been about a lot of programs and initiatives and making sure certainly compliance and lots of things that go into that that world. But in a time of uncertainty, in a time of rapid changing, the skills that we have as consultants are particularly important. Being able to assess and look at data and understand and interpret and comprehend what’s happening and changing around us. Formulating plans that can be shifted and changes and adapted is really important. Having a pulse on um what’s needed and having this agility, this ability to think about um everything that we know to be true, everything that we do today differently. consultants are comfortable reimagining and thinking about something in a new way. And I think particularly for those who manage talent, you know, the ways of thinking about careers as ladders, right? They’re not ladders, they’re lises. Um or maybe they’re not even some structure altogether. Thinking about careers as how can I bring the skills I have today >> along with the interests I have and what excites me and how do I understand that as an organization, as a talent leader? How am I helping the organization understand that? And then using those individuals to solve for and move about the organization in new and different ways, structures, hierarchy, I need to wait my turn to get promoted. That’s still there for the most part, but that’s not what is paramount to the relationship and it’s not what’s helping companies respond in very dynamic and agile ways to the changes in the world. I think that part is really interesting because what we’re seeing happening in particularly with Fortune 500 and a lot of public companies is they’re making rapid talent decisions, right? So downsizing but then upsizing and that that reaction to whatever economic changes happen um is really really challenging because talent leaders then have to spin on a dime, right, and make all these decisions. Yeah. So that particular idea of making sure you can flex quickly >> is so important, right? Because all of a sudden your leader is telling you, okay, we’re going to lay, you know, lay off 5% of the workforce. So, you know, over the next 120 days, we’re going to plan for this. >> Yeah. >> But then a year from now, you might be adding back again. So, >> yeah, >> what’s your experience in terms of how do leaders shift that quickly? I think the biggest thing and we have when I’ve sat in that role and had to counsel or approach laying off, you take a couple of different approaches. So, one is you look at your underperforming talent, right? That’s sometimes um an easy and low hanging fruit. Sometimes you look at um where you have duplication of roles, where can you streamline or simplify? You look at process. I would argue in this time look at the people and what you need and not necessarily the role. So what I mean by that is again going back to who do you have that has skills you might need of the future who have characteristics or traits that you might need. People who jump in who don’t question who won’t want to stay in a box who are you can give them or throw anything at them and they’re excited to take on the challenge to um to learn something new to push themsel. Look at keeping those individuals and do you know who they are in your organization um and how are you nurturing that talent because that’s the talent who’s going to grow with you. That’s a talent who’s more inclined to be resilient through these changes because like, oh, I’ll flex or okay, we’re doing this or we’ve got a pause or I understand what’s happening in the business. And so knowing the dynamic and characteristics of your talent versus just the role in their performance, I would argue is like the next frontier because that’s what companies are like are leaning into is well, how do I take talent who’s funible >> and help me in this dynamic environment? I mean, people who can adapt and who are open to this um this new world. >> Well, we’ve gotten 10 minutes in the conversation and we haven’t said AI yet. So, yeah. >> Um I’m going to call that a victory. Um but of course, now we got to talk about AI. So, I’m thinking as you’re talking, I’m thinking about, >> you know, we’ve made the shift as um >> excuse me, we’ve made this shift um in this idea that we do need to focus on skills-based hiring and organizations have, you know, fallen into that head first. Um but there’s also this idea of even if you’re hiring for skills in the era of AI based job searching where people are able to you know share their skills very easily right use all the AI tools afforded to them >> in order to get through that job search process and in many cases be successful if they’re successfully using AI >> that’s where the performance piece and to your point the resiliency piece becomes so important because now all of a sudden your value your expectancy to perform more quickly is immediate because if you don’t if you can’t deliver and you used AI to maybe showcase yourself in a way you can’t perform all of a sudden those expectations raise. I think that’s also why so many organizations are making this incredible investment in learning right now >> because they need to make sure people are equipped to perform and they can use internal mobility in a different way. And sometimes we think about employer brand for example in recruitment marketing as just about the hiring part. We forget about the internal mobility part and that’s where the relationship comes into play. We’ve got to continue to brand and market to these existing employees that we have. That’s right. >> Because if we don’t, they might sit around in a bad job market just stay put, but they’re going to be disappointed. Right. If you’ve ever been in a relationship, a personal relationship that’s languished, you know that’s no fun. No one’s enjoying that and no one’s getting any value out of it. >> Yeah. >> Particularly your company. >> But so you’re saying a lot of interesting things that are making me think and I’m sure the audience who’s listening is is thinking too. So if world of work is changing, you know, and jobs are changing and AI is coming into play. Do we need employer brands? Do they matter? Do I need to invest in an employer brand anymore? If I’m listening, if I work in the space or I’m an a CEO or a seuite, what is what is employer brand doing for me now or will do for me in the future? >> I’d ask you to consider the same question about your own relationships. >> Think about your relationship with your partner, your spouse, your friend, your family members. If you said to yourself, “Do I need to invest anymore in those relationships?” >> And imagine if you didn’t. >> Yeah. you know, if you just stop caring. If I stopped um my dad passed away this year and my mom is living alone and I have two siblings. Imagine if we just stopped calling her. >> They’re like, “You’re fine, Mom.” >> Yeah. >> Right. What would happen to our relationship with her? What would happen to her? >> Wow. >> Now, think about your organization. An organization, excuse me. An organization is comprised of people in all of these relationships. >> Yes. >> Right. Because every day I show up to work and I’m making a decision about how I feel about this relationship. I am re-evaluating that every day. >> And the organizations, particularly in this age of AI, the organizations that actually put investment and energy and care behind the nurture and feeding of that relationship. >> That’s right. >> That’s and and that’s tactical dollar value. That is bottom line value. all those dollars you spent on layoffs and rehiring. >> If you repurpose that into harnessing the talent you have, yeah, >> leveraging it into internal mobility, there’s an actual cost number you could put behind that. That’s the number I think most organizations if they saw that they’d lose their minds. That’s the number we should be talking about in the seauite and in the boardroom. And that’s something so powerful that you said that you know the human factor the human relationship through evolution of time we’ve had innovations we’ve had you know advances in technology that have automated tasks that were done by humans and this advent of generative AI and LLMs is no different but what’s still at the core is you need the human around you need the human leveraging it and powering it right so you need to understand the prompts you need to understand the outputs that come out of AI and how to use it for your business. There’s so many things that AI won’t do or won’t replace. And so taking care of that relationship, being mindful of that relationship is still important. >> Yeah. >> As you think about um our space, there’s a lot of times challenge between defining our strategy and having that clear point of view, but moving to execution and being able to pull that through in a way that is effective. talk a little bit about the the leap or the bridge from defining and having clarity on strategy, but then getting to the execution part, living it, seeing it, and seeing if it works and tweaking it if it doesn’t. It’s such an important part of employer brand and the employment relationship. And here’s why. Right now, organizations, employer brand leaders, practitioners are are bifurcating. They’re falling into two camps. They’re either building these strategies, right? and they’re making sure they’ve got the strategy, they’re thinking about the big creative or they’re activating and executing. Very few organizations can connect the two. What do I mean by that? Well, the strategy piece has to come from understanding the employment relationship. Deep data into understanding how your employees and your candidates think and feel. >> One of the things that is that is one of my biggest pet peeves is on the marketing side, we collect data on customers all the time, right? True. Every single >> Excuse me, got a fraud in my throat this morning. Um, every single product that we use, >> that organization is measuring how we think and feel about the product at all times. >> How many of us have had to like opt out of, you know, cookies or tracking or like don’t want to use my information? And my favorite activity is unsubscribing from stuff I never subscribed to in the >> because they want that data, right? And they’re not just getting the data to attract you. They’re getting the data to keep you as a customer. But in the HR space, how often are we collecting data on people? Once a year, maybe twice a year if we’re lucky. >> And those that data >> useful data because we’re collecting data on like performance. Yeah. >> Or we’re doing midyear check-ins, right? We’re doing so it’s it’s not always useful data. >> It’s not useful data and it’s often a lagging indicator. >> Engagement surveys are a look back. They’re not a look forward. That’s right. And in this era where we are moving so quickly as organizations, we’ve got to be able to look forward. So what does that mean for the strategy? It means that you need to make sure your strategy is datadriven. How are you approaching branding and marketing the employment relationship, the relationship your employees have with work? And then when you have that strategy, you need to execute based on it. You can’t just do the coolest latest thing. So many people say things like, “Oh, should I be on this particular social media platform or should I be using this new thing?” Right? How many Reddit chats should we be building for our community? Right. >> The answer is always it depends. What’s the data tell you? How are your employees and candidates being influenced? >> And so activation and um the actual execution and strategy have to go hand in hand. You’ve got to build your strategy and then based on that you execute and then there has to be a constant feedback loop of data. That is the biggest opportunity for anyone listening. If you are an employer, brand leader or practitioner, the best thing you can do is collect data on a regular basis. What kind of data? How do your employees feel? Right? What is the employment relationship right now? At Shaker, we measure two things. Confidence and commitment. >> Yes. >> How confident are you in your organization? And how committed are you? >> And that’s a quantitative number, right, that you can intersect. But the the devil is in the details of the qualitative piece because you’ve got to ask why. >> That’s right. >> It’s no longer do you have the tools needed to do your job, right? People care. The relationship is so much more complex than that. That’s the that’s the hand in hand, right? >> That’s really that’s really well said. And I think as as colleagues are listening to us in this conversation, hopefully you’re taking away a couple of things as I’m taking away and listening to us is data data data. Our colleagues in um marketing, in brand, in finance, in fill-in-the-blank department within your organization, they’re capturing data. They’re looking at how to change the way they capture data, how they interpret data, and use it to inform business decisions. Talent leaders are no different. We need to be evolving and thinking about the data we’re capturing. Number two, the relationship is still intact. So the relationship with your employees, the relationship they have with you at work, still intact and still very much important and needs to be nurtured. Um, and then I would say the third thing that we’ve been talking about that folks can take away is the importance of agility and the importance of flexibility. And I want to talk about that for a moment because oftentimes we find that clients or leaders that we talk to will feel like in communications or in ushering this time of I have a strategy and I’m working on how to implement it and I’ve got to have a good change management communication plan. And sometimes they’ll feel like well I don’t have all the answers and therefore I’m not sure what to communicate or I’ll wait until I know what it is I want to say or have it figured out in order to communicate. And so all of your strategies need to follow that same posture. If you’re in a place of transition and change and there’s a lot of unknown, then your messages should in fact reflect that. You don’t need to be confident. You can say, “We’re figuring it out right now.” >> Yeah. >> Here’s what we know for the next six months. Here’s what we know for the next 12 months. >> Yes. >> Here’s where we are, right? And that ongoing level of transparency and communication about what you do and don’t know is as comforting. It’s it’s the worst thing to be disingenuous and sort of share something and then go, “Oops.” and retract it. Right? And a lot of people pick on this example, but I think it’s really apppropo for when we talk about this time and what talent leaders can take away and how they can consult to their organization is, you know, you think about Apple, right? They are not afraid to launch a new product. Yeah. And then and then follow it up with updates. And that’s just we just accept it. No one throws their hands up and says, “What are we doing? Why do I have to, you know, refresh and restart my computer because iOS fill in the blank is is loading? You know, we just sort of accept that. And it’s that acknowledgement that we’ve got you a great product now, but we also hear you if there’s bugs or fixes and we’re also adapting to what might need to change within um the technology that we’ve launched. That is a really great approach as we talk about this time of adapting and thinking about the processes within HR like do we need to have job descriptions in the same way? Do we need to have posts about jobs in the same way? Do we need to talk about our work in the same way? Like challenge everything. Be flexible and lean into the space of dynamicism. Let me ask you, we’re going to talk a lot about change here in just a second, but before we get there, one of the things you talked about is sort of flexibility and this idea of being able to lean into it, which is really hard for leaders, particularly HR leaders, to do because we’re so used to the plan and making sure you’ve got a sense of um, you know, being careful about how you’re going to roll out the plan that every communication is perfect. We don’t have time for that anymore. >> That’s a good point, too. So what is it particularly about Apple or other organizations where we are accepting of okay like fine we’ll just do the update >> or what does it do when an organization is willing to just communicate and say we don’t have anything to communicate why is that so important >> it’s so important because it is rooted in authenticity >> and authenticity is what will give you a long runway in a relationship right so whether we think about a relationship we have with work or a significant other or a friendship. You know, if someone’s like, “Hey, I meant to call you and I got caught up and I was tired. I’m sorry. >> Why can’t we do that at work?” >> Yeah. >> I fell asleep or I had a rough weekend. I didn’t sleep well last night or whatever the case may be. I’ll get back to you. Yeah. >> Or I know we had plans for dinner tonight. I’m not feeling up to it. Right. So, but we feel this need for perfection and sort of buttoned up within the corporate space and particularly in the HR space to have it figured out and it’s it’s doing us actually a disservice now. It really is. >> I think so. Particularly with AI because we think, oh, we’ll just ask the agent to write this communication and what does it miss? It misses the human element and it misses this idea of authenticity. Um, and I think that’s a big part of employer brand. There is certainly elements of human resources and talent strategy, right? The HR tech space is exploding with wonderful tools and platforms. Yes. >> What it can’t do though is create this kind of conversation and ultimately no matter how much AI is powering the job search or powering part of your candidate or employee experience, ultimately every employee is telling us the same thing, which is we want some sort of human element. And I think most organizations are responding and they they get that, right? They get that there’s parts of the experience that are fabulously powered by AI. They bring cost efficiency and time efficiency >> and make make it better for us to be able to fill out the application or whatever it is. >> But the idea of the conversation, the idea of like how are you feeling today? The idea of the care and the concern >> absolutely >> that’s part of the relationship. And that’s where I think leaders really have fallen short. Yeah. because we’re so focused on bottom line which is important. We’re so focused for public companies. We’re so focused on what that how we can move the needle on the stock price quickly. >> And then we’re worried about as we communicate what’s that going to mean for the market. I mean you and I are seasoned enough to know that >> every seuite communication can move the market needle. So we pay attention to that. But I’m curious your thoughts on >> when it comes to leader communications. How do you balance that? I mean you’ve advised CEOs that where you’ve been the the HR leader on how to communicate. How do you do that in the age of AI where things are changing so quickly? >> You need the emotion. You need to acknowledge the relationship, but you also need to understand the implications of the markets too. >> Absolutely. And and certainly, you know, as we talk about employment being a relationship, we talk about things leaning into the space of um not having everything figured out or not having the answer that that certainly can cause ripple effects. um if you’re on an analyst call, a quarterly analyst call or people are watching your stock price. But again, there are models for that and and you raised a really interesting point which is why is it accepted in some industries and not in others? So how come Apple gets to get away with launching a product that’s 80% or 85% my words not apples um and then have these updates right and we sort of accept that well why and that hasn’t affected their stock price. So um what I would advise leaders to do first and foremost and we talk about this is what is your authentic relationship that you want to have in your organization. Who are you? Many times as leaders as organizations we’re looking externally. We’re benchmarking. We’re trying to see what someone else is doing. Lean into who you are, right? Hey, we are an agile everchanging company and that means that our communications are going to be dynamic. We’re going to keep you up to date on what we’ve tried, what how we fast failed, what we learned, right? That’s embracing that as part of who your identity is and being authentic to that will allow the communications to not cause some of those ripple effects, right? Because it becomes part and parcel with your identity and just who you are and what your culture is. So, if you’re known for, hey, we try things. We um we’re open about that. We’re experimental or we like to learn or we’re embracing this new frontier of um trying X or letting our employees do whatever. the market responds well to that because people want to invest in and they love companies who are trying to be innovative, who are trying to tackle problems in a different way. And so I would say don’t shy away from that or let stock price sort of push you into a corner that you may be creating for yourself that’s not necessarily needed. It’s hard to have the long view because right now I think a lot of business leaders want the immediate measurement. They want to see the numbers move, right? They want to see costs go down immediately and that’s really hard. My fear is that that’s not going to get better. It’s going to get worse because things are being disrupted so quickly in so many ways both at the macroeconomic level at the company level, at the team level and then at the employee level. And so, you know, I think it’s really interesting when we talk about employer brand in particular is we’ve always talked about the importance of authenticity, right? You how many career sites say like, you know, opportunity to grow and like, you know, we’re a diverse organization, right? Everybody wants to share those messages. But the more honest you can be to help people self- select out, that is more important now than ever because people can see through every message and they can craft any reply that they want to, right? And there’s so much conversation happening that you have no control over. It’s no longer just what’s the message you’re putting on your career site. It’s how is that content then being picked up into the AI agent and how am I seeing it as AI starts to roll out advertising >> um for example that’s something that’s also going to change the face of how we communicate. So that’s why leaders right now, I know we’re we’re excited about a AI. We’re excited about its efficiency, >> but we also have to make sure we’re not reacting to this disruption, but we’re getting in front of it and predicting how is it going to make our employees feel >> because at the end of the day, we cannot forget the fact as we sit in boardrooms, right, drinking our fancy coffees or, you know, at those levels, even if we started on the front line, right, as many leaders do, we can’t forget that for the majority of the workforce, >> yeah, >> employment puts a roof over your head and food on your table, right? It closed your kids. >> And so when you can’t meet those needs or when you’re starting to have complex relationship feelings about those things, >> sometimes what leaders don’t realize is that that is actually translating into the bottom line of the company. And I’d love for us to be able to get ahead of that. >> I think part of the challenge is the the change, the constant change. And so leaders have a hard time pausing and thinking about what’s ahead because, you know, if I had a dollar for every company going through a transformation right now, right, I wouldn’t be sitting in this chair. I’d be drinking a cocktail on a beach somewhere. Um, >> but instead we’re sitting here talking about these transformations. Yeah. >> Um, but because that’s happening, constant transformations, constant disruption. >> Yeah. >> I promise we’d talk about change. Let’s do it because that’s honestly for me the biggest thing. How do we how do we address the change? How do we help leaders think about this constant change so you’re not having to react, but you can get ahead of it? >> What I I would love to ask you a question around that change. I um >> I’m gonna answer a question with a question. Um but I I think what’s really cool is your expertise in particular. you are one of the thought leaders in the space around employer brand and and I use that word and that term in the most broadest sense that branding starts from understanding talent people your organization you’re one of the the leaders and experts in that as we talk about change as we talk about all these trends what I would have two questions what predictions do you have >> um that you think are going to sort of carry us in the next 12 to 18 months and what most excites you about this time because And the reason I love that is, and I’m asking that for the group, because >> so much around what we hear about this topic is scary. It’s like, ooh, like AI is coming. What does that mean? Or, oh, we need to constantly change. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Right. And and this can be exciting. And I think mindset and perspective allow us to tackle the unknown in a different way. You can embrace the unknown with optimism and excitement, or you can embrace it with trepidation. So, I’d love to know like what are you what what are two or three things that you’re predicting that you might think are coming and what is exciting you about this time? >> And I’m I’m going to turn the tables and ask you that too. Um after um >> I love it. >> One of the things that I think is so important as we think about the future is surrounding yourself with people who are positive about the future, >> right? And so whether that’s your colleagues, your leaders, your partners that you work, vendors that you work with, you need people that aren’t going to scare you into you’ve got to use this platform or else it’s here’s how this can help you. >> Throughout my career, there’s been so many people that have helped me and lifted me up. And what I we always try to do particularly when we’re working with clients is help them think help think through how this reflects on them. Because anytime you’re a partner, right, and I’ve been a practitioner, so I get it. I’ve been in that seat. Um, but anytime you’re a partner, all the work you do reflects on the client. Why do I share that? Because as I look at what’s going to happen in the future, there’s two things that are true. The people that are going to be most successful in the age of AI. One will have more information. >> They will look for more information. They will brace the embrace the information so that they can take that data and either themselves or with the help of partners be able to connect those dots and build the insights. That’s what humans can add >> to all of this technological innovation >> because certainly AI can help connect the dots. You can say, “I’m noticing these three things. What are the patterns?” >> But it’s the human that’s got to be able to add the emotional piece to that, right? That AI can’t do. See someone in person and understand how that might land or create that experience real time >> because ultimately you take a take a truck driver for example, right? the truck driver gets out of the car and hands a package to someone, >> right? There is a component in that that is human. >> I don’t know if you saw the um one of the delivery drones uh this past week got run over by a train >> because it got stuck on a train track, right? And so there’s no human element to that. >> So we can automate a lot of things, right? But so can everybody else? So the human piece and that’s the second prediction becomes the differentiation. >> So prediction number one is the data and the insights. people that will win will have the data and the insights. Prediction number two is the human element in differentiation. When we all have access to the same tools and platforms and we’re all moving at light speed, who are the people that will change things? Who are the companies that will win? Because we’d love to talk about winning these days, right? It’s those that can differentiate the experience. >> Love it. >> Right? Because in the age of AI, that’s why people are starting to recoil, >> right? We still want the human physical touch. That’s science, right? That’s psychology. >> We still need to work alongside each other. We hear this in our research all the time. Why do you stay at this organization through this challenging time? It’s the people. We heard this in a focus group last week over and over again. The people I’m in the foxhole with, the people I’m in the trenches with. Right? That’s the think about the military. One of the hardest jobs that exists in the world. And people do it because of the people they’re in the literal foxhole with. >> Yeah. >> What about you? What’s the the prediction um that that you have as we enter this really challenging time? >> Absolutely. So I will answer that and that will be my last um I think our last comment because we have about 15 or so minutes left and we want to get to any questions that you have. Um so I not dissimilar to um what you said. I would say experience more importantly like as I’ve been thinking about jobs and I you know played in the HR space for a period of time um more specifically you’re seeing this evolution and shift of the type of jobs and and work that we have um and experience you’re seeing these new jobs like they’ve shown up in brand and marketing of you know customer experience and but they’re taking them to the next level particularly in the people and talent space. So this understanding how to cultivate experience is what is differentiating for people. People >> will want the transactional to be easy. I want to, you know, hold my phone up and unlock this or hold my phone up for the transaction to purchase my groceries. But that experience of someone that then says, “Hey, can I help you carry those to your car?” >> Right? who’s thinking about those moments in any type of employment I think is going to start to rise and and be a trend that people are focusing on because that those are the things that AI can’t fill in. >> I would also say similarly is the evolution just of work and well maybe not say work evolution of jobs. Um I really hope but I’m predicting that those companies who win are who are thinking about talent in totality and not in roles. >> Yeah. They’re not thinking about them in jobs and in places, but they’re thinking about them in in terms of what are the capabilities, interest, skills that they have that they can bring. Yeah. And embracing this utility player perspective. And there are companies doing it today who are winning at that, who are plugging and playing and moving people around. Um, and I would say the third prediction is >> we haven’t fully solved what it means to work together in an organization. we are battling with hybrid and flex and you know no I don’t want to come in yes I’m rolling things back to come back in and I don’t think we figured it out. I think there’s been uh the pendulum, you know, was sort of over here. It swung over here for the pandemic and we haven’t figured out what this looks like yet. And I think that that’s still a big area of um pressure for a lot of organizations to get that right and it aligns to who they are and the identity they want to have and what kind of workplace they want to have. >> Yeah, I think that’s so it’s so true. I also think that that extends into spaces where there isn’t an actual office, right? We know >> it’s 39 40% of people that are actually going into an office, right? So, the majority of jobs are not. >> But there still is this notion of, you know, do I want to be around people? Do I want to be alone? When you’ve got the stress of the macro environment around you and all the pressures around trying to for those that are working parents, for example, or caring for elderly parents um on both sides of the equation. Exactly. >> It’s how do I make that all fit together >> in my life? Yeah. >> And that’s a a challenge that’s not going away. and one that um organizations are going to be forced to answer. And I would say I’m one of the like 5% of people who love change and love, you know, I’m the person who would drive um home a different way every time I left the office from work because I needed variety. So, what excites me is that it’s all unknown, that it’s gray and we’re figuring it out. I think that’s incredibly exciting. >> I see we’ve got some questions here in the chat. So, I’m going to get to these. Thank you for those who submitted questions. Really excited by that. Um the first question we have is when constant change is the new norm, how do you create an employer brand that’s credible but also flexible enough to stay true? >> H I love this question so much. Um this is part of the reason that we have moved beyond EVP because an EVP a value proposition is static, right? Think about any product that exists. If a marketer is creating a value prop for that project, it’s static, right? and they have to build all their marketing around that value prop of what the product can do. >> But employment, as we’ve said, is a relationship. And so you need an employer brand that’s incredibly flexible. What does that look like? It looks like aligning your employer brand strategy. We talk about execution with those four relationship dimensions. So for example, you might have an employer brand line. You might have an overarching strategy that is global that you use everywhere. And then you might have a series of different level levers that you pull. So you might have one country let’s say where the organizational relationship matters most. Right? You have found through data rather than broad generalizations that everyone in China thinks this way or everyone in India thinks this way. You’ve done your own study of your own data of the candidates you want to target, the employees you want to keep. you know that people in that particular country care deeply about your CEO and how he or she behaves, acts on behalf of the organization. Well, guess what? In your employer brand content, you’re still going to have your global strategy, you still might have that global brand line, but your content that you share and the channels you choose are going to be those where perhaps you can feature your CEO more often. Perhaps you’re sharing here’s a clip of the CEO on a particular news show. Now here are some employees talking about why that makes them feel good about the future of the organization, >> why they’re confident in the organization. On the flip side, you might have a particular function, let’s say, where the job itself has changed so much and so you found through you know data that you’re collecting again all about the data that employees are frustrated about that particular job. And so what you might do is share a visual road map of here’s our plan to make this job easier. Housekeepers, for example, um if you think about the shift in their job, tips play a big role for housekeepers. And when people stopped carrying cash, people weren’t leaving tips in hotel rooms anymore. So, what did that mean? Imagine the hospitality company that’s actually sharing um an a communication plan with housekeepers say, “Hey, we heard you. We know this is important to retention. Here’s the new things we’re trying. We’re trying a QR code in the room. We’re trying allowing uh guests to charge it to their bill >> so that the housekeepers understand okay this is not going to be solved immediately right to your point earlier >> about communication >> that’s it’s adapting to change >> data I will go back to to the insights all the time you have to have regular data and that isn’t just from clicks and impressions >> that’s regular data from your candidates and employees >> that’s wildly well said and you know adding on to that you know a lot of times we talk with our clients and we say we help you develop a gloal strategy. >> Every company needs a overarching sort of guiding light of truth around your employer brand. But it doesn’t mean that it becomes repetitive. >> Yeah. >> In by business unit, by market, by part of the world, by geography, um by division, by job types, even by job types even. You can find multiple things that are true and consistent around your organization. and then you’re dialing up or down certain messages as you know the data tells you it resonates most. So if you’re talking to early career individuals for example and you’re leaning into your employer brands maybe you’re talking a lot more about how dynamic the organization is, how much opportunity there is to shape the future. You’re talking to someone who’s more mid-career or higher career. You talk about the global nature perhaps of work or the ability to travel or move. So all those things are true, but you’re leaning into different messages and aspects of your employer brand as you know those connect with different parts of the population you have today and those whom you’re trying to attract. >> One last thing I want to add on that topic is you’re also leaning into where you’re communicating. There is a famous um communication scholar quote Marshall McLuhan who said the medium is the message. >> And one of the things that we have done in the employer brand space is we have defaulted so much to putting everything online. >> We know that’s powerful. There’s no doubt you absolutely have to have a social strategy. You need a digital strategy. Those things matter. But that you can’t operate in a vacuum because what one of the things we do is we don’t just measure source of hire. We measure source of influence. And the online content for example, right, your social strategy, your social channels is so important, but so is following that offline. So when I see that Tik Tok, right, that might influence me to take an action. What happens when I put my phone down? >> Who do I go talk to about it? Right? What do if I’m a young person and I might be at home, what role do my parents play? My professors. We’ve got to find a way to measure that influence. again the changing dynamic of the relationship. We’ve got to understand how much do those offline influences play. And in the age of data security where people are starting to get even more scared about sharing stories online, sharing reviews, sharing perspectives, right, or attaching it to their identity, those offline conversations, that’s where the gold happens, right? >> So that’s the other piece as we go to flex. You’ve got to be able to capture the offline influence. That to me is super exciting about where we’re at. >> Your mediums and your messages and your audiences. I love it. Um, we’re almost at time. Um, but we had one comment here that maybe we want to expand upon. Yeah. Um, so the note here, thank you for sharing it, Nicole. It says, “Great call out of treating your employer brand like relationships with others >> and considering the impact if they’re neglected.” Very important, especially partnered with focusing on internal mobility, which I think has been undervalued. Um, as a, you know, as a person who who’s built my career in talent in and had various roles, I can’t say that enough, there’s, you know, different philosophies that companies will talk about. Do I grow the talent or do I go buy the talent? >> Yeah. >> And I’m a big proponent of building and growing your talent. Oftentimes, people are not given opportunities. The research and going back to the data, if we collected better data on our people and human resources and talent functions, asking people things like, “What do you do outside of work for fun? What’s a hidden talent or passion that you have that you don’t um bring to work? You don’t have the opportunity to bring to work. Do you know what kind of things you might uncover about how you can use the talent that you have differently? How you can motivate them and deploy them in different ways within the organization. So, thank you for making that comment because that’s absolutely true. And many of us think, well, you know, I just do the thing that I’ve been paying to do or this is my job and nobody knows that, you know, you freelance as a chef or you love to, you know, do art or you curate whatever. And how can you bring that creativity and that perspective to your organization in some different way, but nobody’s asked? >> It says a lot about behavior and performance, which we talked about earlier. We did a study one time with a client um in a number of call centers and what we found in is that these particular individuals were being asked to try to collaborate more but they were all in these individual contributor roles and then when we asked them right um what do you do outside of work the hobbies were all individual cooking running knitting >> and so what does that mean okay so they’ve got these hobbies but this is where the relationship comes into play if at home outside of work, the behaviors they’re engaged in are individual and not very collaborative. And then at work, if they’re used to being an individual contributor in a call center role, then guess what? They’re not you can’t just tell them collaborate. >> I don’t know. Exactly. So I think as we think about the employment relationship and what we really want to impress on all of you as you’re thinking about the future is that this relationship is so dynamic that if you’re going to succeed as a talent leader, if you’re going to succeed as an employer, brand professional, either strategy or execution, you’ve got to think about the changing dynamic nature of the relationship. >> Absolutely. Looks like we got another question that came in. Thank you so much, Kendall. Um, so your question is, thank you so much for speaking today. Our pleasure. As you can tell, we’re passionate. We can speak on this for hours. Um, how do you approach those who are resistant to change and ensure authenticity shines through when communicating those changes both internally and externally? Great question. >> Such a good question. >> I know we talked about that earlier. Um, would you like me to >> Yeah, please. Please. >> So, that was a great question, Kendall. And, um, there’s a couple of components. So resistant to change is often a broad statement and I would love us to unpack that and understand when I’ve encountered I have a new initiative or I have something that I’m trying to roll out internally and you meet with certain stakeholders and they go well and you face resistance resistance can be questions can be I don’t understand um why are we doing it now so I think the first element when we use the broad word like resistance is what is it that’s actually happening and dissecting that to make sure then that you’re solving the right problem. So resistance can sound like I’m unclear. Resistance can sound like this is in the right time. Resistance can sound like uh we have too many priorities or initiatives right now. Maybe we need to table this for a later date. Um or resistance can you know be hey I just don’t like it or I don’t like you which we like to assume that that’s not always the guiding principle. And so once you can unpack what’s driving the resistance, your change plan is aligned to helping overcome those things. So if it’s a timing issue or budget, well why now? Well, here’s why we undertook this because we saw the importance or it has real ability to help us expand or grow in certain markets. And so we need to look at taking on an employer brand now as a um sort of proactive or lead measure towards whatever the goal is in 18 months or so. if it’s around we have too many initiatives or priorities and talking about well how do we maybe pilot this or roll out in certain markets and take a phased approach so we don’t overwhelm or fatigue the organization so again um I would I would say those go part and parcel resistance let’s understand what’s at play and then making sure that our strategies align to that and can speak to um how the initiative or the employer brand strategy in this case is helping to overcome or how you might again we’ve been talking about flexibility and agility roll it out differently right So you have this global strategy that you’ve identified and maybe there’s a pause in the organization. So maybe you lead with one business unit and they go out first and they lead on this for the first six months and then there’s a fast follow with the rest of the organization. So taking some creative approaches figuring out different ways to get at it. Um hopefully that helps in terms of the question that you asked. But would you add that? >> I would add again the data piece. I never get tired of talking about data because here’s the thing. If people are resistant you’ve got to ask why. The other flip side of that is also we see a lot where people say well we need an employer brand our CEO our CHRO says we need an EVP or an employer brand and I ask probably too much why tell me why well you know it’s important to attract and retain talent why >> over and over again till you get to the reason why for your organization at this particular time in your organization’s life cycle where you are as a business what lies ahead >> and the data can be really helpful because it can also drive that. So as you’re going out to gain buying from your stakeholders, you can say we did a study and x% of candidates have this particular brand perception about our organization >> or x% of candidates in this particular city where we’re building a new location, a new warehouse, have never heard of us. >> And so that kind of data arms you.