Live at The Vision Lab: Digital Media Strategy Q&A

Hi everyone, welcome and I’m glad you’re joining us today for this conversation on digital media strategy. I’m Sarah Hartman, the VP of digital strategy over here at Shaker and I’m excited to be with you today. I’m joined by Jen Witson who brings a great perspective on how strategy and planning all comes together in practice. So Jen, >> hi everyone. I’m Jen Witson. I’m the director of digital media here at Shaker. Um really excited to be part of this conversation and looking forward to diving in and talking about how what our approach to strategy is. >> Awesome. So digital media strategy has dramatically changed over the last several years. It’s more fragmented, faster moving, and more dynamic than ever before. And how brands used to think about media, it’s changed so much. Today, candidates are moving in between job boards, programmatic, different communities, and now we have AI in influencing all of their behaviors. And I think the most important shift with digital media is no longer about where am I going with it, but how all those channels work together to create visibility, perception, and ultimately influencing the right candidate at the right time. candidates right now are discovering different ways. Sometimes they’re searching with intent where they’re hi on Google. Hi, do I have jobs near me in Chicago? Can I find this job? Um, and sometimes the content is finding them. Um, sometimes the AI tools are just shaping how they interpret the information before they even click. So, what we’re seeing really is different than that traditional funnel. and Jen will start laughing because I’m trying to move people away from talking about that traditional funnel. I feel like it’s more of a spaghetti bowl of information on how candidates are interacting with your brand. So, it could be they’re starting with organic content. It could be employment brand content. It could be job ads or social or in the communities. So the big thing is by the time they take any action, their influence is already shaped or their perception is already shaped by what’s going on. And this is more than any of the brands even realize right now. So that’s why the digital media strategy that Jen and I are going to talk about today is really about influencing across a connected ecosystem. So it’s not just about performance on one isolated channel. It’s about how are things working together. So some of the questions you might be thinking about is are we investing in the right channels? How are those channels working together in a smart way? What does that entire candidate journey even look like? And are we building a media approach that’s clear, measurable, and adaptable? So if you think about your own organization and look at your talent attraction strategy, you might think like what is the biggest influence right now? What is making the big impact when I’m looking at my digital media strategy? And so, Jen, like this is a really interesting point here is because now that if you accept that the strategy and the media and the landscape is really dynamic, that means your strategy has to change. Your strategy has to look different. So, Jen, when you start working with our clients and you interact with them and you sit down and start to build that digital media strategy, how do you decide what actually matters? Yeah, that’s a really good question because I think the key takeaway here is really that there’s not a onesizefits-all solution that every single client is different and it’s going to have different hiring needs and different goals. So, what we need to do is to we need to make sure that our media recommendations are personal and intentional. So, we could spend our dollars and go in a variety of different places and that’s one of the biggest mistakes that we could make. So when we’re looking to see how we build those strategies, we’re asking a lot of questions because we want to get to the to the core of what do we really need to do so that like you mentioned we’re in the right place at the right time but that we’re along aligned with the right goals. So really where do we start? Um the first is identifying budget. I know that’s a tough question that a lot of people don’t have the answer to, but it’s really important in deciding on how we structure that overall campaign because one, it tells us how many media channels that we can be invested in so that we can make the right impact, but then at the same time, it also helps us so that we could allocate camp dollars to different channels in matters that where we’re spending more to prioritize with what the goals are. So if branding is a goal, a high, you know, high intent goal, then we’re looking at those and putting more dollars towards there versus if >> even if it’s a range. >> Exactly. But it it is critical and like how when we look at the that budget, one of the other things that’s really important in looking at your overall strategy is hiring goals. So historical we look at historic performance to see what did you achieve last year? What did that budget look like last year to hit those goals? How has the market changed? And then what are your current goals right now? So when we can make our our strategies based off of what your number of applications needed, your hiring number of hires that are needed across different disciplines, what your app to hire ratios, that can make all the difference in making sure that our dollars are either being spread in the appropriate place or we’re managing your expectations because as things change, costs are going to change and what you’re doing this year might not be the same last year. So, if we’re coming in with the same budget as as the year prior, but our our some of our our hiring goals have changed, that’s going to impact what we can actually deliver this year. And so, that’s really critical when we’re we’re having those conversations. And then ultimately, what it comes down to is who’s your audience? Who are you trying to reach? You know that is really important because especially with all of the changes that have happened within the last five years or more in in digital marketing space employing compliancy guidelines has changed the game for everyone. We can’t target by different demographics. So how do we utilize those different digital media channels in order to get in front of those right audiences? >> And I think that’s a great point because I think that’s something that people don’t consider is what are all the rules? What are all the regulations? um all the different states keep changing and so we are really in tune to that. Our digital media strategists are aware so they’re guiding you on which to do as we’re looking at the budget. >> Yep. And and when we’re looking at who you’re trying to reach, it’s also important to think of where you’re trying to reach them. So when we’re looking at market needs, you know, um we have many companies that we work with that have national needs. Now, do you want to always run a national campaign? That’s not always realistic with budgets. So how do we look at those markets and segment them into different campaigns so that we’re putting the dollars towards the things that are most critical? And so um you know for example would be if we are looking at you know a national employer and they really don’t have 10 specific markets. So instead of running one national campaign we may say okay let’s break the campaign up into two different sub campaigns. uh high we’ll look at first like the high population markets versus maybe midsize markets because from that point we’re not letting the platforms themselves drive the track traffic and see where you’re getting the clicks. We’re looking to see where your needs are and making sure your dollars are getting people so that you get that coverage that you need. So that’s one of the things that definitely um when we’re looking at strategy we have to take into consideration because if you don’t look at it a granular granular level then what you end up doing is going too broad. >> Right? the old peanut butter spreading thin trick and then we go run through your budget. >> Yeah. >> Um often when we talk to our clients about media um you’ll often hear us say direct response versus brand awareness. So what does that really mean? That is more in align with what how you prior prioritize your goals. So if you are looking for a KPI of applications then we’re going to bucket that as our direct response media. But that doesn’t mean that is the only thing that we should be focusing on because brand awareness is such an important part to really help give lift to those direct response conversion driving channels. So when we’re looking to see should we add that as a component to our overall strategies. Number one, does it fit in the budget, right? >> And then number two is what is your your brand recognition in some of your critical markets? What is the brand sentiment? So maybe people know you, but what is is it a positive view? Is it a negative view? Do we need you a campaign to help shape that narrative? And then also too, what is the competitive landscape? If it’s a really crowded space, you can drive traffic, but if your message gets lost among other companies advertising at the same time, what can we do to kind of help you stand out and put dollars towards there? So, when we’re looking at overall for our strategies, I would really kind of say like reiterate what I said earlier. Your media needs to be intentional and it needs to be personal. So, you really need to work with your strategists and your media agencies to be able to develop a strategy that’s aligned with your overall goals. Um, agreed. >> And I would say too, the biggest mistake that we do see is that people want to be everywhere. And it’s it’s not the important part is not being everywhere. It’s being the places that matter the most. I totally agree. I mean I think this is a conversation that we have most often with our clients and this is where some of the organiza organizations get stuck because digital media creates this pressure to react quickly on every new platform every new tactic starting on every new trend. And so the difference is whether you’re chasing digital media or you’re actually leading it with a very clear strategy. So, as we kind of move on and we think about like how do we develop the strategy and what are some of the things that Jen mentioned about how we look at your markets and we look at the competition and we look at your brand and at Shaker we really don’t think about digital media as an isolated buy or a disconnected channel. We think about it as an integrated media system that has to work through awareness through all all the way through to action. So like what do we want that candidate to do? What is the end result? Jen, you just mentioned about like is this direct response? We often refer to it as like what’s in seats. Is is the goal like hi, I have to hire somebody in the next 30 days or is it more of a longer tail strategy and we’re working on awareness and new competition in the market? So, as we’re developing these, there’s like four different points that we really kind of guide our strategy. And first, we start off with the business problem. And I can’t emphasize this enough is the fact of what are you trying to solve? Is your problem I need to get 30 nurses in by July 1. That means Jen’s going to have a completely different strategy to go about that or is it we’re going into a new market or is it people don’t know who we are. So there’s going to be some different things. So what is that problem and what are we trying to solve is the first thing. And then second, we’re not tied to any one channel or partner. So we can stay focused on what is actually going to perform and what is actually working. We’re pretty much channel channelneutral. And this is why when Jen and the rest of the team put together strategies, it’s not this cookie cutter plan of let’s do Google and Facebook and Meta. it’s going to be unique and I think Jen you said personalized um unique to them and what those outcomes are. I think too Sarah with that with when we’re looking at you know not being media agnostic where it really gives the benefit is >> we may say that you know when we make our strategy that you should commit this amount to Google for the year we’re going to plan to do this much on meta but that’s not set in stone you need to be adaptable and you need to be flexible so if we look at the metrics and we find that Google is way out performing Google search is performing PMAX we’re going to shift dollars or if it’s meta that’s you know really driving those impressions and that’s the client’s ultimate KPI goal then we’re going to shift dollars to where that matters. It doesn’t make a difference where you get the quality results for we just need to deliver the quality results. >> Exactly. And I think along with that like the flexibility that in in this day and age and where we’re at with digital media and how fast things are changing, flexibility is right at the top of the list. You don’t want to lock your budget up. You want to have reserve budget off to the side so that as we see data coming in, we can kind of shift things around. Um, we also want to look at brand and performance because it’s about that recognition and trust and some of the different tactics that we may recommend is going to be based on your brand and what’s going on and maybe some of the competition in the market. >> I I think you touched on a really key um point there and that’s the reserve budget and that’s often something that’s really forgotten when people are building their strategy because everyone’s so focused on the hiring goals and hitting those goals. But what you don’t want to do is because especially with so many changes that are happening in the market space right now is you don’t want to fall behind and and not be able to test something because you have to pull away from that core media and you didn’t plan for it. So planning is one of the key parts to making sure that your your strategy is overall successful. So setting those dollars aside saying we know that we may not be actually going to deliver conversions directly from it but I need to test to see performance because it may be a conversion driver. We learned that with PMAX. You know, we went into PMX when we first tested it um for our clients a while ago and we said it’s going to be an impression driver. If it develops conversions, great. And it proved that it was a really strong channel for delivering conversions and is now part of that direct media or the direct response strategy. So, it’s it’s really important to set those dollars aside, otherwise you could be missing out what could be really effective. And it’s and it’s setting those dollars aside, but then also having that foundational strategy to to fall against. Meaning, we’re all in this learning stage. Things are moving super fast. Every single one of those platforms are changing on a daily basis. There’s new tools and trends that are going out there. But whatever’s been working, we have data that shows that. But you want to have that either dollars or reserve budget off to the side. But we don’t want to throw away like Google or we don’t want to throw away performance max that’s that’s doing really well. So I mean really when we look at our point and and our simp our our point of view is probably really simple where digital media works best when the strategy investment and the optimizations are all connected. So Jen, can you talk a little bit more about like what does it look like when you’re putting all those pieces together? like how are you keeping it connected? >> Yeah. And and that’s a really good point because that’s the key to all of it is, you know, you mentioned earlier we take a holistic approach and and that’s why our campaigns that we run have been really successful is because we’re not looking at everything with a tunnel vision. It’s all connected. There’s so many different factors that lead to the success of the campaign. If I had to kind of group it into three different things, I would say the number one thing for part of a connected strategy is your media mix. Um, you know, kind of identifying like we mentioned, where are we at? um are we reaching the right audience? Are we doing the right targeting? Are we there during the right time? So um looking at that in conjunction with our messaging because every different channel serves its own purpose. It is not like everything is going to deliver direct response or everything’s going to deliver brand awareness. >> You mean you have to have a unique strategy for each individual platform. Maybe new creative. Yes. Maybe key messaging. Yes. >> Exactly. And and that’s a really good point because when we look at creative um kind of how we mentioned that every platform serves a different purpose, so does the messaging have to be different, right? >> Because the tone has to be different. When you think about how you use social media and you’re on these different channels, >> what do you expect when you get a message on Reddit? How is that different than how you want to ingest a message on when you’re on Tik Tok or even Facebook >> or LinkedIn? >> Or LinkedIn. Exactly. And and really when you look at it, one of the key things right now for job seekers is they want authenticity. They want an authentic experience where they feel they can connect with um the company itself. So if you don’t connect with them and deliver the information that resonates with them in that manner, you’re setting yourself behind and you’re making it even harder for you to get that enga to develop that engagement. >> It’s we’ll we’ll use this example a lot. It’s really similar to the consumer side. So, yes, we’re in recruitment marketing. We’re talking about hiring and hiring goals and the candidate experience, but as a consumer, if I’m um online doing something and I get a message that isn’t my interest, um it’s not something that I’m looking for, if it doesn’t make sense how it’s on the screen, if the creative is off, I’m not going to click on it. It’s the same thing when you look at the candidates. You need to make sure that again the right message at the right time on the right platform and are they all playing together? So your overall digital media strategy what does it look like when they’re interacting on Google or Bing or Facebook or Meta or Reddit and we can go on and on and Tik Tok etc etc. So, like what what does it look like so that those messages are similar but connected and staying true to your brand? >> Sure. >> Yeah. It’s it’s really important to be able to kind of look at those various different things and then how do you you know when you’re following best practice like we talked about on these various different channels and you’re choosing the right channels based off of where you think the audience is, how do you really know if it’s the right place to be? It’s your data. And people always ask when do I start? When does the data really come into the equation? It’s from the very beginning. the data is never not part of the equation when you’re developing digital media strategies. You’re looking at historical data, you’re looking at current campaign data. If something’s not working and you’re, you know, say we’re running a campaign on um a platform and it has really high engagement but low conversions and if it’s a direct response campaign, okay, why is it not converting? are we seeing that it maybe it’s the creative um if our clickthrough rates down maybe that’s not enga candidates aren’t engaging on there >> but and I think kind of sticking through with that data we often will have clients ask us well what is the industry average um what is everybody else doing what are my competitors doing and there’s so many different variables between your brand your company how much budget you’re spending um what your messaging is that it’s really hard because it’s not going to be apples to apples. And that’s why when we do start off, we ask for that historical data. Honestly, any data. Most clients will respond back and say, “Well, I don’t really like my data. The reporting is not right.” And that’s that’s okay, too. But as long as we get something to start because the best guide is going to be your own data and as Jen and team like when you start looking like what are you looking for in the data? >> Really, what we’re looking for is trends. So, what I want to see in there is first, what are your KPIs? What is your overall objective? And how do those numbers align to it? Because, like I said, if we’re running a campaign that is a direct response conversion and I’m getting engagement, but I’m not getting the conversions, there’s something that needs to be fixed. I’m either not on the right channel, my message isn’t correct, my targeting’s off, or something’s not resonating. So, then I have to kind of dive in a little deeper. But one of the next steps of where you can kind of take that postclick data a little bit is what is the quality? Because even if I’m not delivering the volume that I anticipated, but if the quality is good and those are those quality applications are converting to hires, then I’m still my strategy is still effective. But I I think that’s a really huge takeaway and I think we talk about this a lot when we’re speaking with our clients about the quantity of candidates may drop, but if your quality is what it’s supposed to be and you’re hiring, so if I send you a million people to your career website and they’re all clicking apply, but nobody’s hiring them, then that’s a problem and where you’re spending your budget. But if I send you half amount and you hire half those people, now you have a better quality candidate and then that’s where we’re going to want to invest more money. >> Yeah. And it’s really helpful too to give that insight to the employers that we work with because if we are seeing we are driving quality, we’re getting engagement, we’re driving quality conversions, but the hires aren’t happening. That is good for for employers to know because then they can look at their own internal processes and see if maybe there’s something there that where they’re investing these dollars, but it’s not converting to the level they need to. Um, so that’s something that we also, you know, work with our metrics team to really kind of analyze and take a deeper look into. >> Yep. And and I think in in addition to that, this is where it goes outside your digital media strategy a bit. So what does that candidate journey look like? What does it look like when it gets to your career website? What um what buttons are they clicking on? How long is that application? All those things kind of play a factor. And so we try to look at it through the entire candidate journey even though right now as I mentioned it looks a little bit more like a spaghetti bowl than a funnel anymore. Um so we we’re learning and listening to your data to make the right strategy and recommendations. >> Yeah. And and when we’re looking at the data point too, what I what I always find a little bit interesting as well is that it’s not necessarily um we’re making all these changes because something’s going wrong and we just want to react. We try to be really surgical in our approach to optimizations because you want to see the impact that a change is going to happen. If you make a ton of changes at once, you don’t know what impacted the overall performance increase. So to test things out and I’m going to try and change the creative and see what that does. If not here, maybe I’ll adjust the targeting because every time we make some of those different types of changes, we enter learning phases. So you could spend your whole time if you’re constantly changing your campaign being in a learning phase. So it never optimizes properly. Again, another great point that I think we talk about a lot uh when with clients is the the creative element of it and shifting that creative. Imagine if we launch a campaign on a Monday and then multiple times during that week we change the targeting. The next week we change the creative and then when that data starts rolling in, >> we don’t exactly know which one worked. Was it because we changed out the creative or was it because we changed the targeting? So it there there’s a very kind of I love the word surgical approach to what we do and how we optimize those campaigns for the candidates. >> Yeah. And and optimizations are really key to the success of your campaign. Campaign digital campaigns can’t be a set it and forget it. You have to be in there. You have to get your hands dirty. You have to be making changes and seeing um how things are performing and really diving deep into those metrics because when you’re optimizing a campaign, what it’s going to do and looking at that data is just going to help you to make smarter decisions over a long time so that you’re not changing it like we said just to change. Agreed. But everything’s intentional. Agreed. Um, so I think where we want to look at, again, just kind of re-emphasizing the strategy and the messaging and the data are all connected for us to go ahead and make better decisions faster so we can keep up with the moving space. So I think right now we’re going to go ahead and look to see what questions we have online. So yeah, so we do have a few questions that came in. Um, so one of the first ones is you touched on this a little bit, Sarah. Um, but maybe if you can get a little bit more insight on how the candidate journey has changed and how that has specifically impacted digital media. >> Yeah. Um, I think I go back to I’m I’m on a on a on a mission to try to remove the word funnel because it’s just it’s just not a funnel anymore and it’s much more fluid with all these different media that and touch points that are along the way. So when we look at that candidate journey and where are they interacting, there’s no they do this first and we do that second. Um they’re getting influenced by some of the ads that are online, but even more and I know you guys have been counting of how many times I’m going to say AI, but like with the AI, it’s influencing their behavior before they even get to their career website. So a lot of times these candidates have already formed a decision about you and your brand and your culture before they even get there. So I think those are one of the biggest shifts that we’re seeing right now. >> And I think one thing too that’s kind of interesting is that a lot of those are h happening simultaneously before click even happens. >> Right? >> So that’s that’s what’s really interesting is before it was pretty linear or you know went down the funnel. Now people are kind of doing all of these things at once because all this information is readily available and they have different ways of searching information that they never had before. >> That and I think we focused years ago a lot on keyword and and city. So sales job in Chicago, nursing job in Nashville. And now what’s happening because we’re all so used to having phones next to us and doing the voice to text those those searches is being a longer tale searches. So now a candidate search might look like, hey, I’m looking for a job in the Memphis area and I want them to have a great culture and I want to get paid this amount and I want to have a remote job. It’s not just keywords anymore. And so that is really what’s influencing along with the other little X factor that because of how some of those search engin are are search engines are working the candidates are not even realizing they’re interacting with AI. Yeah, I I think AI mode has been a little bit of a gamecher for us, especially when and how we go about our Google search. And so when we’re developing those keywords, just like you said, we’re we are looking for, you know, building our keyword list with those traditional keywords. So when candidates are going to Google search and searching it um for those clickable links, but when they are going and searching within AI mode, it it’s a different way that you have to come up with those keywords so that you’re included in the search and so that your ads um you know do come up, you know, below that bold. And this is where too, not to go off on another tangent with content, but your content and your content strategy is so key because some of those basic questions that the candidate is asking in that AMI AI mode about what is their culture like? What are their benefits like? What are their jobs do they have available? Is that information easily accessible on your career website or not? And so these are questions that you can start asking yourself and looking at your own career website to try to figure out, do you already have this information? Can we help? Yeah. Um, we do have another question. I think this is one that I can answer for you guys. Um, how do you account for long-term long-term and shortterm hiring needs when building an annual digital media strategy? Um, when we are talking to our clients, you will often hear us uh talk about always on strategies. Always on strategies are critical for your overall campaign. When you are intentional and you are and you put together a very thoughtful plan strategy, it is going to build that pipeline of candidates so that you’re not running into as many urgent hiring needs. But let’s be realistic, urgent hiring needs happen. So the way we approach digital strategy is um Leah Mancini is one of our VPs of programmatic and she has a famous line that media strategy should always be 90% uh proactive and 10% reactive. And I I can’t say more that that is such a true statement. So we build our strategy so that we’re being proactive so that we can build those that candidate pipeline and then there is going to when those 10% needs of where you have hiring in a specific market or there’s um another competitor is having layoffs and you need to try and attract those. We have dollars that have been kind of set aside to address those individualized needs. >> It’s it’s about building your strategy on layers so you have that foundational piece that foundational element for that long-term strategy and then you make adjustments as you kind of move up. So when you know competitor something shifts in the market, news comes out, different things happen, it’s not this hair on fire mode because you have that foundational piece. >> Yeah. And then there’s another question here for you Sarah and it is what is the biggest mistakes you see team making when they chase new channels before they’re ready? >> I think it’s really easy to get caught up in our space with the new trend, the bright shiny object theory. um what should I be doing about AI? Let’s inter let’s interject all of the different acronyms, right? The LLMs, the AEO, the like all the things and we keep going back to basic fundamental. What’s the problem we’re trying to solve? And so if we lead with what is the problem we’re trying to solve and then build the strategy off of that that particular problem, that is a winning solution because we don’t want to chase strategies right now. There’s so many new things or trends. There’s so many new things in the market that if you’re chasing that, we’re we’re not going to know if it works. Um we could be taking some of your budget away from some of the foundational elements that are tried and true that we know that are working year-over-year. So again with it’s easy to get caught up in that. I would I would say take one big step back. Think what is the problem that I’m trying to solve? What in my I will use this word all the time when I’m on the phone with clients is like if I could fix everything for you tomorrow, right? >> What would that look like? >> Yeah. And and I think what’s interesting there is that a problem that a lot of the TA professionals that we work with run into is they will get asked from their bosses or their boss’s bosses on >> why are we not on this channel? Why are we not here? And so really what where that kind of comes into play if it we’re going to look at the strategy like you said to match your needs and make sure we’re hitting your goals because at the end of the day that that boss’s boss’s boss is going to want to make sure that you hit all your goals before you just tried it something that was new out there. But what we want to do is really kind of look at it from the perspective of like you said, do we even need to be there? If we do, should we set a should we utilize that test B budget to really kind of try and see if it’s effective or not? Because you don’t want to take away from your core strategy to invest in something that we don’t have proven results for. So, >> all right. And then one um last question that we have in here unless anything else comes in is um Sarah, what are you personally watching um closely right now for the next 6 to 12 months in digital media? >> It’s a great question. Um I think a as an as an agency and at Shaker since we are you know neutral in the space we are trying to look ahead to bring the best of the best back to our clients. So we’re keeping an eye on the market. Um, I stay very close to kind of the consumer end. Usually consumer moves a little bit faster than in recruitment marketing. They also too potentially have a little bit more budget than what we do in recruitment marketing. Um, they’re all still in that learning stage. They’re doing a lot of the new trends, but it’s what is that end result and like what is that reporting and we want to make sure that if we’re making any of those recommendations that we can track and measure it and report on it. So, we’re looking at some of those conversion things. So, as I look out over the next like six to 12 months, it’s trying to prove what we think is working. >> So, some of the new channels that are out there that are having different ad platforms, let’s test, let’s learn, let’s see if we can prove this theory while still maintaining your strategy. A >> and I think it’s not always just about new platforms and out there. It’s what are our current platforms and what are the products that they’re offering. you know, we find that with all the proven channels that we’re working with, they are turning out new products and learning from things and and we’re testing out those products as well. So, it’s it may not necessarily be we’re going to add a new channel in here. We might make recommendations where let’s maybe test this product within one of our current uh core channels and see how it performs >> well. And I mean, performance max back a couple years wasn’t even a factor. And so that’s as these channels start to change and adapt, we want to make sure that we can change and adapt. And it looks like uh we have one more question. Um we’re getting questions about shifting trends in where candidates are getting information from. How can we better be about showing up um where they are outside the standards? Indeed, Glass Door, LinkedIn, Facebook. Do you see any front runners or have um or where we should be showing out outside of AI? >> Well, again, I think the the first thing to do is to do some sort of audit. Look look to see where you’re showing up. So, if I think in the question it said something about like how are we supposed to was it candidates who are Yeah, they want to see where they should be showing outside the standards. >> So, I mean it it’s going to be just because it’s outside the standard doesn’t necessarily mean you should do it. So I think the first thing is measuring where you’re where you’re currently at. So whether that is through leveraging your own data and looking at some of the tracking and or looking at the content. Um I often encourage some of our clients go out to Google and what is your number one job that you’re currently looking for? You’re looking for an engineer in Houston. Go to Google and see what that experience is first. You will very quickly see how it’s showing up. What does that AI mode look like? Maybe your competitors are showing up there first. That’s going to give you a lot more guidance than anybody else can tell you. You know your brand and your organization better than anybody else. >> Yeah. And I think that’s it’s goes back to it being personal. You know, it’s going to be different for every every different company. And that’s why it’s important to have your organic strategy, content strategy, and your paid cont strategy work together. Um because they really do influence each other. So, um, that’s definitely something where when you’re looking at things from a holistic, uh, perspective, some of those other non-standards kind of fall into that organic, uh, world where you want to be able to make sure that you have the right presence there as well. >> We do have another question and this is on clarification on the candidate journey. Y um, at what point in the candidate journey does marketing stop? Does the endpoint still make sense given how candidates are finding and vetting um, employers today? So, if I was on the phone with you, I would ask you to clarify a little bit more, but I think I don’t think that there’s it it there’s not a clean marketing stops at this point because we play um a lot with marketing. So when we work with some of our um different clients, we have the marketing sitting at the table with us because marketing typically is leading um the outward strategy and we will take um whatever marketing is doing and put a recruitment marketing spin on it. So they may have set like the foundation of like this is our go-to market strategy, this is how we’re showing up, this is where we’re at in certain locations and then we’ll we will go ahead and take it. But I would look to see what your messaging is because when we talk a lot about brand and recruitment marketing and the consumer brand, both of those messaging, we’ll we’ll say it should look similar as if they’re related in the same family. So some of those pullth through themes on your marketing side, we can then pull that into the creative or into the recruitment marketing end. And I I think too when we look at our strategies um just because when your your conversions go down like you don’t have the same need for direct response go down that doesn’t mean necessarily that you stop. That’s a great opportunity to start the brand awareness piece and really pick it up because what you want to do is you don’t want to just turn off the faucet. So that when um if you keep your message out there so when you are ready to hire you’ve already built that trust, you’ve built that recognition so that you’re prepared. You’re you’re a couple steps ahead rather than trying to play catch-up. And we’ve seen a lot of clients who have gone through either a transition or a new EVP or they were um going into new countries, new markets, new states. We’ll tell them to keep that on so that it isn’t going from zero to 100 and and you you’re trying to kind of recover and having that general message continue. >> Yep. And that wraps it up for our questions. >> Awesome. Well, I think I just want to say thank you for joining us today. Um, we, Jen and I, as you can see, can talk a lot. Um, we would love to keep the conversation going. So, if you can, please connect with us out on LinkedIn. Go find us. Uh, feel free to share this on your network. And we would love if you’d like to learn more about Shaker, go to ww.shaker.com um, and visit for more information. But thank you and appreciate your time and your interaction. Thanks everyone.