Employer Branding Unfiltered: S1 Ep.8 – Keisha Fowler

sometimes in order to get a campaign going that could be used globally is you just don’t use any words you just show them there it is you just show interesting you don’t is that through video is that through yeah you do it in video form you know what I mean you just you show them we’re hiring for people to do this let me show you what that looks like put some fancy music behind it put some words on a screen that can be switched out to different languages so that people can read it in the language that they speak blast it out there look at that it does more than what you think that it could [Music] [Applause] [Music] do all right y’all we’re we’re here we’ve got uh one of my my my favorite employer branders who I watch from afar uh she is a Content Queen uh and and I think one of the most versatile uh employer branders that I’ve met um and I’m happy to have her here for employer branding unfiltered Kesha fer welcome thank you I’m happy to be here absolutely absolutely I’m glad that we we got schedules to to flex like some own bils and and get us here to be you know post Olympic shout out there um but yeah yeah look what’s what’s been going on how have you been how’s your summer summers’s I mean I’ve been great busy time at in The employe Branding space um busy time in home you know getting kids out of the house helping kids get transitioned uh it’s it’s it’s a fun time life life is moving rapidly in many spaces a dull moment over at our place absolutely yeah yeah look I mean I think back to school is is one thing going to school when it’s like college yeah and that transition is crazy but then through it all we we still have to show up and put on uh for our various organizations and so um I’m excited to to talk to you about all things EB um your journey so I think the best place to probably start is to ask you the question that I ask all guess of employer branding unfiltered and that is when did you first fall in love with employer branding yeah um I I wouldn’t say I fell in love but in in strong like um you’re still dating is that what I’m hearing yeah we’re trying we’re still figuring things out you know we want to see where this goes um yeah just um I hate I you know what I absolutely hate is I hate when you’re in a room full of people people and they they go uh how’d you get into this and they go oh you know I just kind of loed into it fell into it and it’s like that’s not what you did that’s your privilege that actually got you here because there’s nothing really that prepares you for this um I actually um applied for a role that had a writing background so that’s how I I got into it um okay previous organization was looking for someone with um good WR skills degree in English was one of the requirements and I was like I got that I I can write I wrote blogs um when my kids were growing up um homeschool my kids for a long time so I knew like I I can do this I can I got that um my kids when we were homeschooling one of their um one of their assignments was like creating a YouTube channel and coming up the content and the scripts and things like that for it um so that they could learn engineering ing how to mesh things together um and so that was their their thing and at the end of the year you know we just kind of looked back at the videos that they shot um so I knew that I had kind of like the background that they were looking for I could write half the degree um had the the the experience that they were looking for so that’s how I got into it it wasn’t something that I locked into like most people will say um it was something that I have been working at previously and this was a way to kind of uh take those transferable skills and make them into something bigger help an organization to kind of um grow their brands grow their names because I had done that previously for me and the kids so so I love that first of all I’m going to call out that we share something in common which uh which I I think we got uh we we shared with each other when we first met at a a Talon Grand Summit in Chicago a few years back but yes you are a alumni homeschool mom my wife uh just let’s say graduated this year we just sent our kids back into schools uh after four years of homeschooling so uh that unto itself is a whole sure she’s sad about that I didn’t see tears today I thought I might I thought I might but I think I think the in the buildup was was all the time for the sorrow but now it’s they’re in the mix and we just sent them off today but but that I I love hearing the transferable skills and like many of us who’ve gotten in this space we didn’t go to school for employer branding or recruitment marketing right but we had a skill set that was of value to the let’s say Talent acquisition uh and recruitment space that they know they needed but did not have within that within that function so I love that so you brought your writing skills your um ability to Wrangle Wrangle people together around things through homeschooling um to to now tell the stories of large scale employers for the purpose of Attraction engagement and attention Okay I love it um so not in love strong like I like we’re going we’re going to reference or revisit this dating situation uh as it relates to employer brand just a bit um so so tell me a bit I guess from an experience perspective now uh you’ve built employer Brands uh from scratch uh you’ve walked into scenarios where they had some things here but you had to tighten them up I’m sure uh done the EVP research uh created or crafted the brand activation strategies and all that out of all of that uh where did you do this from within the organization is does EB sit within ta for you or is it in marketing or coms what’s the or dynamic so um in in in both instances and both two different companies they’ve always sat in Talent acquisition um so part of HR both of them always um neither one of them in comms which I thought was interesting interesting um but Talent acquisition in in both of them um MH first organization that I worked for um it was called tag Talent acquisition group now this one is GTA Global Talent acquisition so it’s the same acronym just it’s it’s very funny how each company just recycles but both of them in Talent acquisition yeah how do you feel about that I’m like y’all it’s it’s it’s it’s almost like um and one of my my pet peeves it’s like they all think that everybody is doing something completely different we’re all doing the same thing man like you’re speak about it speak about it different you’re we’re all doing the same thing why do we need so many different names to be called one thing and I think it’s just like a method of just trying to confuse Us in the industry who actually know what we’re doing and can say I bring this to this organization pay me accordingly right right and it seems so simple right like the skill sets are primarily the same that we’re bringing to this work the work’s outcomes and the intentions of the work are pretty much consistent no matter where you go so why is it that there’s still such a fragmentation across companies and I what I found and through speaking to people much more brilliant than myself is that I think there’s still a lot of education required for the leadership level in understanding this work H how are you dealing with that because I I think that there’s still a lot to be desired in terms of knowing what it is that we’re doing but then also having the the right expectations for what we do how are you navigating that the kids the kids will lead us the kids will tell us which way to go like there there’s no way around it like this this upcoming generation is the biggest generation they know how to do things right and it all we have to do is pay attention and take those learnings back to our companies and say this is what is working and why do we need to reinvent the wheel if someone has already done it and has seen success in it so what I’m doing is I’m looking to my younger colleagues my my own kids what what’s happening I don’t I my husband’s a teacher and we just laugh because we we don’t know much about being young but when you’re a teacher of high school kids they teach you exactly what you need and if we my thought process is as we get older our methods tend to be older as well but we need to keep younger people around so that we can keep that youth about us so we’re never always behind the wheel but at least we can be on par with it we we’ll never be in front of it because it changes so much much like RZ short for Charisma like who who who thinks about that you know what I mean like oh yeah skib to Ohio Sigma yeah like we’re it’s a whole language that we it really is that I don’t understand and I know that Corporate America is just like we are what we are and we don’t want to change ourselves but at some point you will have to accommodate the people that you are trying to get into this company to get into your company so so organizations can tout we want top talent we want top talent we want top talent but does top talent want you there’s the how are you attracting them to get to you like what are you offering them to make yourself stand out in order to bring in that talent that you want to have to push your company forward yeah I want to stick with that one for a second what are you offering them what’s attra active about you why should they choose you do you I mean look you’ve seen enough of employer branding content out there is anybody saying anything different nobody okay no everybody’s company is the best company to work for everybody has the best people everybody has the best perks I mean you know what I mean unless somebody is saying let me let me hand you over thousands of dollars of stock in in your initial like your you’re saying all the same things there’s nothing that is differentiating yeah yes what our efforts are from the next company’s efforts so then so then that leads us to I think a lot of us in this space is that existential question of so how do we move it forward how do we create differentiation in this sea of samess where everybody’s apparently so amazing that they have zero attrition cuz no nobody leaves and I don’t even know why we’re trying to attract you cuz we’re so great what do you do different I have a theory on this but I want to hear your perspective on what do you think needs to change in order for employer brand to evolve to a space where not everybody saying the same thing who tells the best story who story better who who tells the better story like if everybody’s staying nobody’s leaving your company is the best like what what what I tell people is that um companies will never say what’s bad about them right they’re never they’re never going to say you know you work you so hard um to where you feel like you have no work life balance they’re never going to say oh we give you unlimited PTO but we don’t expect you to use it because if you actually do use it you’ll come back and feel so behind that you’ll never want to do it again right so nobody’s ever going to say that so my thought process is how how are you treating your employees and how are they talking about you okay so can your employees go out and tell a good story about you or is your will your own employees be like yeah I’m not messing with them like I’m only here for that you know what I mean like I’m just here I’m just here so I don’t get fined right like right right right right or or the check is good and I’m not trying to mess that up so I um one one of my uh colleagues she was I interviewed her for a role she she got the role she was the best one for the role um she she’d been trying to get with the company for a long time because she’s heard such great things about the company she just loves the company and her mom called the company um the golden handcuff oh I haven’t heard that since the uh late 90s early 2000s so go there’re the golden handcuffs this company is considered the golden handcuffs cuz like once you get in um you’re in right you can make so many different career path move changes You’ be there for 20 years and never do the same thing twice and so even if this person has never worked at this place to call something a golden handcuff is that a good thing is that a bad thing like who’s you know whose story is being told here yeah because the company will never call itself a golden handcuff right uh not unless they have a really good narrative around that and I don’t think how I don’t see how handcuffs in any scenario is probably scenario would be great right not a good look golden or otherwise yeah like so it’s it’s it’s who has the better story who is telling the better story so so it’s it’s not necessarily what you’re saying it’s how you’re saying it yeah and the people who’s saying it and who’s telling the story yeah who’s telling it I could rock with that um and I think that that is probably the there’s a lot of open space for how to tell similar stories uh depending on who’s telling the story to your very point I also think and you mentioned it that companies are never going to talk bad about themselves right and I and I think I think there’s a a space for that and one of the things that we say is that uh we believe that uh transparency is the new authenticity and and I think directly related to your earlier statement the the the the kids will tell us right they they want transparency because guess what they’re going to find out anyway these kids they don’t rely on what you’re saying about you to formulate their opinion like they’ll take some of that into consideration but they’re going to hit like 12 to different uh 12 to 18 different touch points to figure out if it triangulates to what you’re saying and they’re they want to know the real they want want to know if you’re if this is a Grindhouse if I’m going to work you know 18 hours or working on weekends trying to keep Pace because that’s the expectation or the unspoken expectation of your culture how you tell that story I think is where the art and the science of employer branding meat because it’s better to I think give people what they need to know upfront so that they can make an informed decision and opt out if it’s not their JY versus you bringing them in false pre they get here 68 months or or less to find out this isn’t what you sold me yeah and the kids these days they don’t mind quitting they’ll quit in a heartbeat like they will they’ll quit and not even leave the job yeah that’s a whole different level of quit like quit they just check out yeah get it’s not worth it yeah I mean and it’s like how are you going to keep how are you keeping that you know I mean cuz times have changed it’s not like our parents where you know they stayed at a company for 30 40 years because it was a good company because their checks came on time you know what I mean and and they made a life it’s I don’t want to be stressed at work yeah I don’t want to take that stress home with me I want to be able to do a job do it well be compensated for it be awarded for it and be recognized for it m so that I can continue doing a great great job because somebody somewhere um appreciates it yeah even if it’s like a drop in the bucket you know what I mean especially if you’re at a large corporation small Corporation everybody wants to feel like they’re valued right so if I’m coming to work and I’m giving everything and there is no value there’s no payoff for me why am I here so again it’s whose story is being told because I’m not when when I was looking to transition over into a new company because I did not feel valued in my previous role every time I tried to um move up it was you did great in the interviews we have no feedback for you it just didn’t work out make that sense and then it’s yeah so if you have no constructive criticism for how I can improve so that I can get a role then why am I still here here like why why and then it’s like you know when I talk to somebody and I’m just like hey how can I get ahead how can I move we talk about the corporate ladder how can I move up this invisible ladder right that doesn’t seem like it’s being pulled down for me from the attic right um and then it’s just like you’re a great fantastic person you’re a great leader it’s just not your time but my numbers are showing consistently yeah that what I’m doing is working you have no complaints about my job the work that I’m contributing and yet you want to give me a 3% increase and then tell me that I’m not able to move up because Susie over here has 20 years and we’re going to give her seniority even though she’s not doing anything with the background that relates to this role but we’re just going to give it to that so when I’m when I was in the process of looking for a new role because I didn’t feel valued I didn’t feel like they appreciated any of my contributions and it’s very funny because when I did leave the company they still left my contributions up on their website yeah that’s how that goes my contributions are still to this day up on their website but they didn’t see value enough in me to to promote me or move me up and so when it’s time to look for another company I hear every that y’all are telling me but I’m digging deeper I’m like the kids I’m like I want to know I’m looking for people who actually work there are you sharing what’s going on at your job or you just mute about it and that’s just what you see in your LinkedIn profile is that you just work there and you don’t have anything to say about it everything that you talk about is either personal or inspirational and it’s talking about you know um turning a page or turning a chapter or not letting people get you down I’m like ma’am is that sublim Lial like are you not do you not blink twice if you need help yes like are you you know what I mean like what what what’s going on here cuz if I’m looking and I can’t find anything about what you do I’m thinking like n that’s not really a company that I want work for because if you can’t say hey I got this great you know I I got this award at work cuz I did great like if you can’t even tell me that on a platform that is designed specifically for that I want to come work at your company look there’s a lot a lot that you just said to unpack and I think you can’t even brag about your own job which is telling which is telling and and maybe you don’t feel empowered to maybe you don’t feel like you uh are um you know that you have the voice to do that right because you’re not an authorized spokesperson or a you know tapped Ambassador as it were but but also so you know in the age of uh I think social and people I think we’re at a point where people feel more comfortable speaking about their experience and I won’t say all people but I’ll say a lot more people than when I first got into the game um you know are are more empowered to talk about the goods and the bads right but what I what I what I don’t see and it’s interesting your experience and leaving someplace where you didn’t feel valued and and trying to go to a place and and how do you get those signals of if they will value me and you’re looking at the other employees and are they sharing how they feel valued do you see expressions or examples on the career site or on the social channels of the company where they are valuing their employees that’s huge for employer brand but I wonder and I think it’s worth exploration like how do we tell the story of the person who is at the organization doing phenomenal work performing in at the height of uh performance metrics and still not getting that that move up that recognition in both compensation to Elevation and title and so forth how do we tell that in an employer Brand Story that can actually be uh both true honest and positive for the brand is it possible is that a I don’t know if it is possible I don’t know okay I don’t know because I will say my in my time at the company that I’m working at right now yeah every year when you know annual reviews come around and you know we know that around February um folks will be promoted or not promoted um I think having just that transparency right if there are 40,000 people at this company you cannot expect 40,000 people to all get promoted right no it’s just not going to happen you can be doing spectacular work sure but if you’re in a if you are in a u a group business unit a department that has 80 people and the way that it’s the promotions are set up is that only 10% of those people can be promoted then you need to be very clear about that to everybody so that you know that I’ve only been here for a year I’ve only been here for 2 years you know what I mean I’m not in line for promotion just yet I can be doing fantastic work but it’s just still just not my time because if you have 80 people and only eight of those 80 people can be promoted please do not bring Susie again who’s been here for 5 years who does not work as hard as I do into a promotion talk when I’ve been here for two years and have exceeded su’s work ethic right sure and I think we talked about this a little bit when we were in Chicago about how um mediocre some people are allowed to be where others have to excel in the same role just to be seen and so that’s when that transparency comes in because if I can be mediocre and do my job and still be promoted listen I’m about to be mediocre as hell right like I’m about to do as much mediocre is my is my goal at that point that is my goal right like right right I’m G stick with it because if I go ahead then you think that you can add more things to it but if I can be mediocre like Susie over here and be promoted because there’s no transparency about how promotions are given and that’s it I think that that is a huge point right coming out of this are companies willing to be transparent on how they do promotions and and and look there’s that’s a slippery slope in the sense that one you would have to have a very well-defined criteria for promotion and be um and be honest about not even honest be accountable to um to uh enforcing that as it were right like if this is the criteria and you’ve met the criteria then promotion happens unfortunately in the real world that we are in there’s that little invisible number that they won’t tell you that that can be promoted the force ranked choices for sure so Force rank promo uh Force rank distribution and calibrations and oh by the way it’s not just on your performance that’s a piece of it who knows you what do they know about you how much value have you contributed to them and how have you made them looking there’s a whole set of factors that they would never put on paper because if they did people would be pissed and people would be promoted accordingly right so so so now there’s no gray area I I think it speaks to a bigger Challenge and and one that I think um we as employer branding practitioners are kind of in a in a jam with is that the expectations of the talent market and the willingness of employers to be transparent are not aligned right no so so how can how can then we as people who are shaping narratives perceptions of the brands that we are stewards of sell a narrative that we know isn’t 100% true and transparent but it does accentuate some of the positive some of the culture some of the people in the stories enough to get people in right there’s there’s a there’s a a cognitive dis I think required to be an employer brand practitioner right especially when you yourself might have gone through some things that you like I don’t know if what I’m putting out there is is aligned with my own experience let alone the broader organization and in this situation you have to do your work as an employe brand brander right yeah you have to be able to know like all right people need jobs they do do that yep we need to be able to hire those people who need the jobs who match the skills that they were looking for then you also have to be able to tell people what they’re looking for so my entire thing as a person who tells the story of a company as you know what I do for a living is to make sure that what I’m telling them is what they’re looking for right so as a job Seeker I’m looking for work life balance right I want to hear how you going to give me that work life balance I want to hear how much you can pay me be transparent how much are you going to pay me and if you can be transparent about that which a lot of companies refuse to do then talk to me about the culture because if I’m not going to be paid what I’m worth at least I better be happy going in there right are there going to be people that look like me that I can relate to that I can talk to that we could bounce ideas off of or am I constantly the only black person in the room making me feel uncomfortable right and if the answer to that is no then you now have enough information to say okay well then I’m not going to apply correct right give the people what they’re looking for yeah yeah and I think be honest when you don’t have it be honest when you don’t have it that’s the extension right so we get to give the people what they’re looking for but we haven’t gotten to but also say when you don’t have it so that they can move on and you can move on because and that gets into a very it’s a perfect segue into the conversation around EB versus recruitment marketing and they’re very different intents and outcomes so people always like try to lump them together say more talk about it maddening isn’t it it’s like little bit employer branding is the company mhm like that’s that’s what the company thinks of themselves that’s what the company thinks that you think of them right that’s their brand they’re never going to in their branding tell you we suck as a as an employer but please still apply because we have uh some things that we need to get done and we need you to get those things done so yeah okay and marketing is just completely different it’s it’s the people here telling you why you should come work here right it’s it’s the it’s the what what we can offer you but it and then I think that a lot of people like my husband um he went on an interview a while back um and he really went into that interview thinking like I’m interviewing you too oh yeah and so he got to the interview portion where it’s like do you have any questions for us and he says yes if I’m trying to transition into a new industry that I’ve never worked in before how do you as a leader coach me through this transition how do you make sure that I’m meeting the metrics that you’re going to be setting out for me if I am new and I am still learning like what is the learning process and how are you going to coach me to be the best they could not answer that question he was like I ain’t working for you that was it that literally was it yeah that’s interesting said if they had given it like if got an offer from that company but they could see that it wasn’t Mutual if he had got he would have turned him down he’s just like cuz how would it have worked if I got in there I’m new I don’t really know what I’m doing it’s a transition so it’s transferable skills that are being moved into this new area and nobody can coach me through it I don’t want that there we go there we go I I’ll I’ll edit I’ll edit that part but yeah if he’ had got in there like if he’ had got in there that could have been disastrous in a in a massive waste of time yeah you know um that’s what it’s interesting in the sense that from the branding element of packaging The Narrative and the aesthetic of who we are hopefully defined by some research um and then the recruitment marketing right the dissemination the distribution of not only that content but the job opportunities that should be aligned to that content um I I think that there’s still a massive disconnect between what those two functions are supposed to do and even I think even sitting in Talent acquisition furthers that disconnect right because we sit we sit in there looking we’re in ta a recruiter’s prime directive is to secure talent to acquire Talent at the lowest price possible to achieve the the the aims and the the the requirements of the of the work uh of the organization we are supposed to now craft the perception of the organization to make it attractive and appealing for people to want to even consider it as as a as a place that they want to uh work the challenge is that our outcomes become measured by the success of recruitment when branding isn’t a conversion tactic right it’s a awareness tactic it’s a uh emotional connection it’s resonance it’s relevance like none of that is but in seek if anything it’s just defining the seat for but to be in and making it appealing you know what I mean so I don’t know I think uh I I wonder what the connection or the disconnect how do we bridge that Gap in understanding oh I’m here there we go all right so I don’t know where how do we bridge that Gap and standing for leaders in ta chro CMOS whomever they have to be willing to new to to be accepted to be receptive of trying new things yeah and that’s I think that that’s that’s true I think that yeah so so the budgets then oh go ahead no go ahead yeah yeah I was only going to say that the the the I’ve seen scenarios where you have let’s say a chief HR officer who is super dialed into and understands employer brand why we need it what its outcomes are and and how that relates to recruitment marketing and then I’ve seen the opposite um whether whether it’s chro even the TA leader themselves where this role might roll up to what I find though is that regardless of the level of understanding they know that there’s a business objective tied to this work right what whatever that business objective is some might think that it’s more more applicants some might think it’s more highes some might might know that it’s more awareness from an employer brand persp perspective but from a budget perspective how I I think the the amount of dollars allocated towards the work that we do is directly proportional to the understanding of the leaders who are allocating that budget I I I have to say that I’ve been very fortunate in the role that I’m in now where the leadership understands the value and what we bring okay to that business unit so it it works well the budget works well they know that this is what we need we we could show you know we can all show like numbers to prove like this is actually working and we can take those numbers and we can take those dollars here’s the dollars that we use here is where that was allocated and here are the results right everybody wants an Roi like what what’s what’s the what is it you know what I mean I me they they they throw on these kpis rois you know what I mean like would would they want to know what they’re spending the money on right is it absolutely included you know what I mean but when I think that when you get higher people people higher up who know that this is what they need in order to drive their brand forward but they still don’t want to spend the money they’re just ruining their own company making it harder excuse me for everybody else right yeah yeah because how am I supposed to bring in top talent if you give me $10 [Laughter] not $10 yeah yeah so there’s not much I can get with $10 and so you’re getting what you’re paying for right and then your attrition goes down people are not happy because I gave him a $10 budget you gave me a $10 budget this is what I got in like you’re not getting the top talent if you’re not shelling out the funds and I’m not saying make the budget unlimited but make it reasonable so that we can do what we’re doing I like unlimited though um I it’s not reasonable but but look this is spot on and I I hear countless uh employer brand leaders who are asked to do ex excuse Ferrari level employer branding on Honda Civic level budgets and then get vilified because you didn’t how many hires did we get out of that campaign and I’m like here’s a $5,000 budget yeah we need at least 300 hires or300 applications on and I’m like where you getting these people where where are they coming from are they coming from thin air like I think the problem and this is with every like employer branding everybody thinks that their brand is stronger than it actually is that’s a word that is a word yes say more please everybody thinks that the is a lot stronger than it actually is and that people should be throwing themselves at the opportunity to be able to like apply to work here like I had I I worked at one employer I’m going to leave them out I don’t want to bust their bubble or anything but you know uh Fortune number whatever they love to call themselves we we have all this we have this and they they tout that they’re the best right sure but then at the same time they go you know um uh we only accept like 3% of the applicants oh okay like folks can get into Harvard easier than they can get in through your hiring practices Harvard I think has a 6% acceptance rate at least like damn are you better than Harvard is this what you’re telling exactly are you are you better than Harvard but like you’re not paying your employees well enough wow there’s no room to move up in the company it’s who you know and how long you’ve been there but you’re touting we have a woman CEO and we have this and we have that and we have one black person in the sea Suite so that makes us great right we’re diverse we’re diverse we’ve achieved it totally diverse we did it we did the thing you should be throwing yourselves to come work at work here yeah that doesn’t work not everybody will look at that brand and automatically think damn I’d love to go work for them you know what I mean [Laughter] I think that that is especially true with Legacy companies right companies who’ve been around for 100 year plus or you know they have this Prestige about them because of their tenure or you know age and so forth and and maybe not even just those it’s the ones with the big consumer Brands who think the same thing where I mean I’ve I’ve asked people like yeah name you know your favorite brand that you buy from all the time or that you hold in high esteem because of their product but do you know what it’s like to work there and most people have no clue that’s what I always say yeah and so you get this halo effect of great consumer brand but your employer brand could be the complete opposite let your employ tell it like I I had one cooworker who left to go work for a company that shall not be named um cuz they’re such a large company but like the internal chatter about working there is horrible the internal chatter about working there as hard it’s like it’s Cutthroat it’s like doggy dog inside that company but you’re leaving to go work at a company that you don’t know you absolutely know no you absolutely know you it’s not that you don’t know you absolutely know but you’re going to yes I’m going to be the change right it’s like like the girlfriend who doesn’t whose boyfriend won’t change but she thinks that she’s going to be the one to change him right like I I can ma’am he’s not going to change that is exactly what it is going into it like this company is not going to change they have a trash reputation for how they treat their employees but you’re going to be the one to go in and affect change companywide to make it better right and then you’re laid off within 3 years surprise surprise we do I love that Meme by the way surprise surprise that cracks me up but you’re so right and I think it’s so funny how that all still connects back to Brand right it’s the brand that will make you go to this company knowing full well they are a Grindhouse and will eat your soul keep you there but it’s great on your resume it’s great on your resume right like that’s crazy to me like I’m gonna go there because the brand is so strong for my resume that I will subject myself to a shitty lived experience that’s crazy and and and people sign up like they line up to do it like line up like these are the companies that are lined up around the conference center or the Expo floor for hours the best thing ever right they they did no they did no Outreach they did no recruiting efforts it just going to skate by on our names because this is who we are and people are going to flock to us yeah and yes yes and then and and then for people who who are doing employer brand at not those companies have to do like everything to be to number one compete with the awareness compete for the awareness the attention and then sell all of the things to Showcase how we’re we’re just like that company we we’re better than that company but nobody knows yeah but yet the line is super scarce at our and that’s why I said no one’s doing anything different everybody’s doing the same things oh that’s fascinating that’s a whole case study unto itself I think like the the employer brands of great consumer brand companies that are absolutely trash absolutely trash that people will like leave their really good paying jobs and and there’s no thing it’s job security you know what I mean there is no such thing um not here in America um I mean go to Italy you can keep your job forever and ever and they can’t kick you out right um but there there’s no job security but you’re willing to throw it all away just to say I worked for ex company even though they drove me mad had me you know going crazy and wouldn’t even pay for my therapy literally literally give me three free sessions and feel like that I should be done and everything else is out of pocket yeah which is when you tout your EAP you know uh your your employee assistance programs as part of your because you’re going to need it to when you come work here um I look I think there’s something to be said about that uh you know if we we have a really active EAP and it’s like really do your employees really need to use this a lot red flags red flags speaking of Italy um and sort of the global nature I know that you uh you work in global function uh to espouse an employer brand that has to resonate around the world no easy feat uh for those of you who are new to this space or learning about it trying to express one employer brand for 120 countries around the world yeah it’s not easy how are you how are you working through that um and how have you found success I’ll say in localizing for regional Nuance or cultural Nuance in certain uh markets um but still maintaining sort of that core brand it’s a lot of cross functional work MH a lot of cross functional work right um and and and in the industry that I’m in it’s just you you have I I worked on a campaign because we’re hiring for for roles at manufacturing roles right and it’s not just in America it’s it’s a all of our our our manufacturing plants right so my job is pretty tricky because it’s like how can I come up with a campaign that will resonate not only with the us but can also be used around the world right and then the trick with that is people always want to see themselves doing the job right because you’re not going to apply for something if you don’t see somebody that looks like you doing it right um because like I said Corporate America I don’t know if I said but it’s vicious you you you wear down when you’re the only other in the room right that’s right um it starts to make you feel like you shouldn’t be there even though you’ve probably earned every bit of the reason why you are there there’s still people looking at you like you know got hire those a lot when I was like H how did how did you get how you he oh my God yes yeah you look so young do you know what you’re actually doing you know what I mean like cuz I’m not a 60-year-old woman right like right right so yeah every day I’m trying to figure out like ways and I’ve learned that sometimes in order to get a campaign going that could be used globally you just don’t use any words you just show them there it is you just show interesting you don’t is that through video is that through yeah do it in video form you know what I mean you just you show them we’re hiring for people to do this let me show you what that looks like put some fancy music behind it put some words on a screen that can be switched out to different languages so that people can read it in the language that they speak blast it out there look at that it does more than what you think that it could do I I believe in fancy campaigns I believe in throwing a bunch of money at things you know what I mean but sometimes simple works best because not everybody is going to be able to be flashy not everybody wants flashy sometimes people just want to know like you got job open for me can I can I read the job description does it sound like something I can do and then can I apply for it that’s true that’s true yeah everybody’s Court ship looks different around the world and and and I I’ve learned that and you know deploying brands for 120 110 country respectively it’s you can’t just lift and shift what you made in the US and then put it in Romania and expect that it’s going to be received the same way and so you know some some elements of your brand messaging needs to be reduced it needs to be altered to fit the cultural uh Nuance or the the the patina of that uh Market um you know coming in with some flowery Rosy highly aspirational brand messaging which might work great in San Francisco right you might need to drill this down if you’re going into Moscow and just get to the get to the [ __ ] point like get to the point right here’s the job here’s your opportunity apply right like but you have to have people in those markets to to help you navigate that and I think that’s something that’s so lost in our in our space is that we often times don’t have a counterpart that does what we do in the countries that we that we support can we can we get that going how much therapy yeah how much therapy have you done on that because I’m just in my brain it’s just kind of like hey we don’t have that role here can you help us Kesha like I don’t live there so I can’t speak your language yeah like how how can I help you like the United States of America is a is a melting po right people look all the same that’s not so in Ireland you know what I mean I can’t use American speaking people talking about how much they love their job in an Irish no does not work Community we don’t have accents like like we don’t have the accents we don’t have the culture we don’t have anything that would you know appeal to them and some people hate America and why is so Say It Isn’t So This is not hate America and don’t want to work for an American company because America’s pompous right we think that we’re better than everybody and you know we just so great and that is sometimes a turnoff and so I can’t use my recruiting methods in a place that hates America I got to go learn what what works over there so that I can work in that in that culture like you know what I mean like I need people who speak that language I need people who look like the people surrounding them there might not be very much diversity we can tout diversity here but that’s not everywhere right look that’s that’s a whole that’s a perfect segue into the next question so be because look I think sometimes and I’ve seen this happen not not that I’ve been a part of it in fact I’ve had to save a few situations where oh well look we did this this great photo shoot with a bunch of employees from around the country we’ve got Asian we’ve got Latino we’ve got black we’ve got disabled we can use that same imagery in the other countries and I’m like oh no you can’t cuz even in let’s say if you’re going to uh B if you’re doing a campaign in Beijing and you use some Chinese American uh participants in your photo shoot people in Beijing know americ American Chinese and what that looks like like you can’t just you can’t just lift and shift these cultural expressions and so it gets into the conversation about how do you accurately represent culture and the identities of people without being performative right that you have to you got to care about the people you know what I mean you have to care you have to care about the people well how do you show that how how do you as an employer branding practitioner or an organization how do you keep your organization from going down performative theater rounds right keep them you gotta have person of color in the room you can’t just not you can’t just leave it you know I mean you have to be you have to have somebody that’s going to call that out do you know how many like flubs a lot of these companies have had and it would not have been if somebody black was in the the the room that was helping to make these decisions or female or Latin female Asian Latina somebody has to be in that room like don’t tell me that you want to hire more latinxt people but you have no latinx people behind the efforts to get it done o look at that look at that you have to you have to have somebody in the room you have to or else you just don’t care you just check in a box we did it it we did it po horribly it wasn’t our best effort but we put it out there if you want to show people that you care if you want to be able to transfer get the people that you’re looking for in the room let them tell you what resonates with their culture let them tell you what kind of words would pop out right to people in that culture like you know what I mean like you and words to stay away from and words words to stay away from right you need to designated driver in these cases right because otherwise you won’t know what you you know what you don’t know you you set yourself up I remember uh a campaign BS BS BS bees did BS bees yeah sorry to put to to call y’ out out but they had this campaign where it was like families right they had the the nuclear family they had the the they had the white family they had a Hispanic family and then there was the black mom and she was just there by herself oh not the TR I was like who was in the room where’s this where’s this child’s father there’s more black people who approve this campaign yeah who who was just a flub that didn’t need to be right Old Navy when they put the the monkey um on the littley yeah these are flubs that didn’t need unforced errors was what my husband would say for baseball unforced err like you didn’t need to do that if this is the the the demographic that you were trying to appeal to get somebody in that demographic in the room so they can tell you because if you had brought that to me I’d be like why the black kid got to have the monkey on if i’ had have been in the room I’d have been like where that lady’s husband like her baby don’t have no daddy like what what is happening you know what I mean like how did Baby I do I do it was an Immaculate Conception like where that baby daddy at like can he be in this picture it’s look you’re absolutely you’re spot on and that’s a you have to go to them and show that you actually care if that’s what you want to bring into your company I think that’s super important um also one of the ways that you know I’ve guided clients even in who have said hey look we’ve we’ve we’ve tried all of the diversity job boards um you know we we’ve got great ergs we’re doing a lot of the right things but it’s just not converting and I’m saying well okay I think first of all we need to step back and and realize that you’re approaching this from a transactional perspective and that is the quickest way to turn off relational people from anything you’re saying because you can have all the you can have all the ergs in the world but are they actual Community to your employees are they actual Community to your employees if if if uh if somebody in your organization was a part of this ERG and they needed a shoulder to cry on or lean on to talk to somebody else is the corporate jargon going to get in the middle of it or is are y’all building actual Community yeah and are you taking those insights from from those communities and using them to improve the lived experiences for everybody to change and improve the structure versus just hey you have a space enjoy that space right we won’t do anything with it yeah these are the things of substance that I think um you know will really come through a brand if they are true and you said it authenticity uh it has to be true it can’t just feel and look good yeah I had um I did a campaign we did disability campaign uh I want to say last year um and I was interviewing or I was talking to one of the um my colleagues and I was just she’s she’s um she’s a wheelchair user she considers herself she she’s not she’s a wheelchair user okay um and she said even though companies tell that they have accessibility and things like that they don’t think about things because they’re not in that person’s shoes right you can say we’re disabled friendly uh company right because we have a ramp or two right but when that when that person whose wheelchair who is a wheelchair user needs to go into the bathroom to wash their hands in the sink sits up here and they can’t reach it are you do you care I feel too friendly in that moment I’m sure right and when y’all are scheduling team meetings and they have to be in rooms that are not wheelchair accessible to get to or the door’s wide enough to get the chair into or you’re saying hey um you know we’re having this one does does the wheelchair user constantly have to call you out and be like hey I can’t access that Bon is that your thought process like what’s your thought process we can’t use this room because such and such can’t get in here we need to build sinks that are a little bit lower because such and such can’t properly get her hands washed when she’s done in the bathroom like you know what I mean like everybody wants to tell we’re number one and and but what are your employees who actually have to deal with this think about that and what are you doing as Leaders when you get complaints about it doing to rectify it to show your employee that they are valued enough to make these changes to fit and it makes you feel good when you are talking to somebody in their and their um manager says to them you know I sorry I didn’t know this was an issue for you but I’m going to do everything I can to make this better for you and if there’s red tape behind it I’m going to make sure that there is no red tape behind it to make sure that you can do this adequately that’s a great story that’s a great employer Brand Story that’s a great Humanity story if you can tell are you just gonna talk it if you can tell it that’s that’s the thing right it’s it’s one thing to craft that story but is it true and and I think that to and I want to be conscious of your time because you’ve you’ve been amazingly generous this this hour we’re talking um you know there’s a there’s something to be said about diversity and uh diversity Equity inclusion what as tenuous as that landscape is right now and companies that are actually like walking away from their commitments completely or dissolving those teams cutting the funding and so forth but still even in that in that compartment but then in another one they still want to attract engage and retain Talent from those communities so we as Employer branders become sort of that bellweather to say like look here’s what you can say here’s what you can actually lean into and here’s what you can’t because if you do we are knowingly selling a false narrative and and that’s not going to improve your attrition numbers in fact it’s probably going to be do more more brand damage down the line uh than any efforts that you’re paying to uh shape positively right now so I think that that’s a huge message and I hope people who are listening take that away especially as practitioners that we have to be able to Showcase to our leadership who our company actually is to the employees that live it every day so as to not only just say hey here’s the stories we can tell to sell and attract more people but here’s how you can actually improve your company right and leverage those insights so kha I’ve got oh my gosh I could talk to you for hours um but in every uh every episode we have uh answer a question leave a question in which case uh I’m going to present you a question that was provided by Our Last guest and that question is in 10 years what do you think the evolution of employer brand will be pull out your crystal ball you know honestly I I don’t think it’s going to be much different from what it is now okay corporate takes a long time they just move so slowly it literally is like the best hurry up and wait that you’ve ever seen right it really is it’s like we need to get this done now now now now now so you do the work and you get it done now now now now now and it’s like oh you know what we can actually hold off on this yeah did all the work for this right yeah so right I want to say that it will be a little bit better but honestly in 10 years employer branding is still such a baby to a lot of these corporations and even still a lot of Corporations don’t even know that they need it so until a lot of people can and even the ones who know that they need it want to treat it like a redhead stepchild right so like I was told like you know we are not going to we know that employee branding is important we knew recruitment marketing is important but we’re only going to let these four people do it because this department spends money they don’t make the company money oh the other yeah right so this is this is the portion of the business that spends the money and we don’t want to spend too much money doing that we want to get top talent but we don’t want to spend too much doing that we want to be in the business of making money not spending it and so because employee branding is such still a baby right because employee branding if we’re being honest stemmed from social media sure social recruitment marketing social media made employer branding possible right because everybody wants to be seen everybody wants their name out there right because that’s social media is where branding actually came from right when you yourself can be a brand to make money just being yourself right you don’t have to be anybody you don’t have to be an actress out here where you know you have to speak on behalf of somebody else or you have to transform yourself in to somebody else in order to make this money right I’ve seen uh one woman she just records her whole entire life but there are people out there that actually want to watch her live her entire life my kids watch other kids open toys and play with them oh the unboxings yeah what are we doing why are you watching this kid play with his toys when you got a whole bunch of toys over here you can play with go play with your own toys right blow mind until companies know um that they need employee employer branding they need recruitment marketing they need to spend the money to make it effective and that as long as this generation that’s coming up is going to be the largest generation that needs jobs and that they need to learn how to appeal to them in a recruitment marketing employee branding friendly way I.E Tik Tok Snapchat YouTube shorts or wherever these kids are that’s where you need to be it’s literally going to still be the same in 10 years they’re still going to be inching their way through and they’re going to take lessons that other companies are taking and go why couldn’t we be the one to do that they never want to be the first one to do that because they didn’t want to be the first ones to do it right they want to see somebody else be successful in it so they can repeat it and go why can’t we get the same success that they’ve gotten because literally the first one to do it wins right everybody else’s kind of copies after that so that’s it you heard it here first 10 years about that though let’s we we are here trying our best to make sure it won’t be right yeah uh and we’re doing that wrong about that but as long as we have a hurry up and wait that’s that’s what it is it’s gonna be okay all right well I appreciate that and and also in due fashion now I’d love for you to leave a question for our next guest to answer yeah I my question is going to be what what are you doing in your role to uh to make uh this industry accessible to more people of color okay cuz this is a very non diverse role industry that people just look into so how do we get more people of color to look into these roles okay yeah look uh there that is a phenomenal question I can’t wait to hear what our next guest uh answer is and I think you know there are so few uh you know marginalized people from marginalized communities that are in employer brand roles uh we go to the conferences we find the four of us or the five of us that are there but I will say that that is changing I have seen more of Us coming together and I think that you know that will also help to drive change uh within our industry so great question great insightful conversation kha thank you so much for joining uh it’s been Absol pleasure of course of course and hopefully we will have you back uh yeah but but uh but thank you and I hope everybody uh watching uh has enjoyed this as much as I have so thank you for being a part of employer branding unfiltered and we will see you soon [Music]