CareerXroads & Shelia Gray: Live from The Shaker Vision Lab at UNLEASH America

[Music] All right, everybody. Welcome back to the recruiting community podcast. Uh we we do this usually we do this weekly where we meet with TA leaders kind of talk about what’s top of mind for them. Uh we try to do it in a conversation format. I’m scared of outlines so this this makes it work pretty easily for us. Uh but we happen to be in a slightly different location. We’re at Unleash uh this year. Uh we we’ve set up Shaker has been kind enough to sponsor a place where we can kind of sit and grab some TA leaders uh that we know that we love that we respect and we really want to hear their opinion on some things. I’ve got Shalia Gray with me who set here. Shalia, why don’t you tell everybody a little bit about yourself? I’ve got I’ve got questions. Okay. But I want to talk about what’s going on in your head and your space and what you’re seeing. Introduce yourself. Tell everybody a little bit about you. Sure. Hi, I’m Shalia Gray and I’m a recruitment architect. I’ve spent probably the last 10 to 15 years building talent acquisition COE’s for global companies. So I walk into organizations and whatever state they’re in, I’ve got to analyze what’s going on and then figure out how they can best use talent acquisition to meet their business strategy. So I love what I do. Well, I have to tell you, you are one of my favorite TA leaders. You are a nononsense. Like if you if you were to walk the floor with Shalia and and listen to her talk with some of these vendors and it’s not not in a bad way, but it’s kind of like a that doesn’t make sense. Very very to the point, here’s what I’m trying to solve that does or doesn’t work. Yes. Correct. So your take, you don’t have to name any names here, but like your take of what you’re seeing on the floor from an AI claims or an AI delivery or because that AI this, AI that, agentic this, agent take that. What What’s your take so far? Um what I’m going to say is because I’ve been in this conference three years in a row. Yeah. Four years. Four years. Four years. Um what I’m going to say is uh the space is incredible this year when it comes to AI cuz I felt like last year there were more programs around wellness than anything else. Didn’t seem like that. I think after after co wellness became a focus. There were more programs today. This year is more things about AI or every firm trying to show me how they’ve integrated AI as if that’s my most critical thing. I mean things that I didn’t even expect AI being and even firms when I looked to who talked about uh they had a uh voice to AI a yeah voice to AI. I was like oh my gosh it’s in everything. So that piece is good. I think people are talking about the next generation which is the agenda of AI whereas last year they were just talking about AI. Y the question is, you know, like they say, you know, the tool in the wrong hands never gets used well. So I think in some respects when I’ve talked to a lot of people here, they don’t know how to use this. So the session I just attended, we’re talking about recruiting tools, I think it’s very important because I always say to my team, don’t get caught up in the shiny objects. Yeah. Right. Because shiny objects are those people who bombard you with the next great thing, but if they’re not solving for a problem, it doesn’t work. So, anytime someone calls me and contacts me, first thing I say is, “What are you trying to solve for me?” And if they don’t understand TA well enough to be able to answer that question, then I know they’re not probably can’t be a partner. They’re a vendor, but not a partner. And a partner makes you better than who you are. Yeah. And that’s why you spend money. Well, and it’s an interesting call. As you’re talking about that, I’m just thinking like some of these tools are incredible. Yes. But they’re not going to be a solution for every team. No. And so I think the the magic is if you can figure out how to have that conversation directly with these vendors to determine are you solving a problem that I have or are you maybe 5 years ahead of me? Are you may maybe I’m maybe I’m not there. I don’t have that problem yet. And I think if I were a vendor, I would have very clear marketing of what problem I solve. Yeah. What what is my ideal customer base? Because some of these are for standalone smaller companies because of their pricing model and what they deliver. If I’m global, right? So, can I be whatever? I would do stuff to focus in on that because I’m a woman. For example, one of the things that I have started to do because my company does a lot of manufacturing is put in uh assessments that do real job previews, right? Those are expensive. I met a vendor here who can just video realistic job previews, make them available for recruiters to send out to candidates as a part of the sourcing for us to put on our career website saying the day of whatever that is more cost effective if I was a company that didn’t have a lot of money. Yeah. And I was like that’s the first thing you should present. I’m an all-in-one solution at this price point for companies like this. And so that’s what I don’t get. It’s like they they have all this other stuff that’s cute. And I think marketing does it, but they don’t understand that the buyers in the HR space. Yeah. Only have a limited amount of money that gets cut all the time. So, you got to say how you add value. Little little bit of forest in the trees type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So, let me ask you, uh, is there a tactical shift you think people are sort of underestimating right now? doesn’t have to be AI related, but with all the things leaders are dealing with right now, do you think there’s something that’s truly tactical that that is a little bit of a miss amongst your peers? I haven’t made up my mind, but there was a shift for us to do skills. Oh, yeah. That’s a shift. Now, now Josh just went in there and blew that up. So Josh Bson in his in his thing today was saying, will skills be the priority that we need? Yeah. Because given the AI stuff that’s that’s coming out, will that take away some of the skill skill pieces? That’s the piece because I don’t think we all got okay many of my companies it’s hard to get them to think about competencies much less competencies translating skills much less validating skills. So we’re so far back on the evolution if this hits then we’ll blow we’ll blow it up we we it’ll be gone. That’s a good point. So I I think that is one of the biggest shifts will skills be as is important. Yeah. Well I think it’s it is fascinating because we are seeing a couple of tools here and there that are kind of flipping that. Yes. kind of flipping that on its ear. Yes. Yes. And I was surprised. He said he wasn’t bought into it. Now he thinks Yeah. All right. Uh so I have another question for you. Uh let’s let’s shift a little bit. Let’s shift gears. Talent attraction strategy. So within within the work that you do, have you changed your approach or delivery from a talent attraction standpoint uh here recently or do you have plans to kind of pivot that? Okay. So there’s a couple things I believe there are es and flows in recruiting. There are times when companies are in control. Okay. So we are the buyer and we can dictate and there are times when candidates are in control. So candidates were in control right after co Sure. because they knew that working at home works for some people. They saw how companies respected them for the time commitment in the in the work life balance. they cared about their mental health and all that. So what I’ve seen is candidates are demanding more. They’re they’re more educated when they change jobs. You know, they want to know about the wellness phone. They want more commitment to work life balance. They want to know about the work location is a hybrid of work. They’re they’re much more educated because they experience things uh in a in a closed environment. So I think to do attraction today, it’s a couple of things. I think we have to sell more than just the job. And that’s what we’ve used to do. Just sell the job. Yeah. I think now you have to sell people on why you why why me? Because there are a lot of jobs. Why me? And how are you different? So the the differentiator of your company, your organization, the culture, the culture, the people, the learning and development, the growth. Um I think people are asking those questions more than about the job. Okay. Do you think that that that power shift? Because it seems to me I agree with you. I do think that is a back and forth kind of an eb and flow while while historically I do believe the employers have held all the cards I think with technology right and you’re right I think right after the pandemic but then I think slowly the employers were back into control for a bit and now with automation and all these crazy tools for applying and interviewing and that that are at the hands of the candidates it’s I think it swings back where they get a little more and they can be a little more demanding of the employers to tell me tell me more about that I think candidates can be more demanding of employees because they have more access of information about the employer. Yeah, I do believe that. But what I’m going to say is something that I I saw slowly has become quickly which is the EVP, the employment brand. Why work here? Why stay here? Yeah. So when I did one of the career crossroads meetings, I’m thinking it was 2020 2008 around that time. We did it at United Way in Atlanta. Okay. And I met my first employment branding person. Okay. Right. And at that time she was doing Yum Brands and whatever and we were all amazed. What’s an employment branding person? Why is it important or whatever? How is that a whole job? Why is that a whole job? And I’m going to tell you most of my peers have someone focus just on the brand. That’s the candidate engagement. That’s trying to to control the narrative because I remember back in those days um uh Bank of America said if you don’t create a brand for yourself, people will make one up for you. Right? your narrative will be based on your glass door results, the last employee that left you, the last layoff you did or whatever. And so I think that we are all trying to to do more narratives around why us. And I think candidates are looking like looking at that. And I don’t believe that it’s crack in our our ballpark anymore because I believe that the critical skills we need are not looking for jobs. People because here’s the deal. People have changed their opinion about what’s valuable. if I get like I was sitting with someone this morning and she said I was able to move to Vancouver my company lets me play as hard as I work and I said is the compensation the best in the market and she said no but I’m willing to get those people right whereas we thought that that was the only motivator those things matter to her now so I think our ABP has to reflect while we are meeting you where you need to be yeah I agree with you I think I think that and I got to I’ll be really honest honest and be a little vulnerable here. I think a level a truly level playing field makes a lot of TA teams nervous, right? To not have the upper hand in the deal, to not have the upper hand in the mess. Well, but here’s what I’m going to say. Uh it was three years ago when the tech companies that had never laid off laid off before, right? Yes. That was the Google’s, the Facebooks, all those. The way you did it makes a difference. I worked at Sun Micros Systemystems back in the 2000s. We did everything. We we we made laying off a sacrifice. So we cut cost, we asked for employee suggestions, everything. So by the time and we did training of all the managers for how to do the layoff. Then we did training for them on how to talk to their teams after the people left. Then we figured out the day to have it on. Then we figured out, oh, we’re going to make people have a bums rush to leave or we’re going to put them, we decide to get cabs in case they were so emotional they couldn’t drive. We figured it all out. RCO said the day after the layoff he got letters from people saying the way they were treated and how they did that made them respect sonic sisters. Okay. Now let’s fast forward to what we did two years ago. Uh emails uh cos going on video calls said sorry I had to do this. I made some mistakes. I never get the the pelon was was one I saw that was like tough. It was cringeworthy. So as a result, how can you trust? How can you trust? I mean, organizations don’t get that those things have a a lasting lasting impression. So the safety and security in a lot of those companies is gone and they don’t know it’s possible. And the way they treat you when it happens. Yeah. Yeah. It is it is interesting because I just I spoke with a young recruiter a couple of days ago talking about roles that we’re starting to see kind of open up. Yep. And two two of the very highprofile tech companies who had taken part in this really less than ideal way to to reduce their workforce. Uh and I mentioned there were some openings and she said that’s gross and and her opinion was based on the way that they had treated the previous Absolutely. the way that they had three companies I know about that do did layoffs every January so they wouldn’t have to pay out bonuses. Mhm. So, and I worked for one of those. I did, too. We called it the fall festival. Yeah. They they they you had to be on payroll for December 31st to be eligible for the bonus. Got paid out in March. We did the layoff in February. Then by May, I was hiring them back as contractors because you had to wait the six months for the for the se for the the tax thing for the for the layoff. And then I brought them back at a higher salary. Yeah. And they did that just so they can make the earnings for that quarter. So I don’t think it’s that uncommon. It’s not uncommon, but I just know those companies had it as a strategy and I said, “Why would you go there?” So, so if you’re thinking about let’s just let’s say you’re in an organization that has a less than stellar reputation. Yes. Right. In that regard, how are you how are you shifting that from a messaging standpoint and your attraction? Oh, it’s interesting because I work for a company like that. Uh horrible LinkedIn. I worked at two companies. horrible LinkedIn uh things was not willing to change his culture. Yeah. And what I said to them is you’re going to have to be real. So when we do our employment branding Yeah. you you can’t downplay who you are, but you got to up upplay why people stay here. There you go. All right. You got to up cuz some people stayed there. Some people said, “I have grit. Um you know, it’s in my community. That’s why I’m there.” Um I feel like I’m making a difference. Um, one company, uh, there was a there was a, um, an environmental thing that happened and they saw that the company made a difference and they felt that was something good. So, I said, “You’re going to have to play up that because let me tell you something. You can’t not deny the experience people have with poor leadership, less than market compensation, opportunity not being real.” So, those can’t be talking points. That that is the reality, but it can’t be talking points. Well, and I got to be honest with you. I mean that that culture is going to appeal to somebody, right? So so there is going to it’s going to appeal to somebody. But here’s the deal is there somebody it’s going to appeal with someone who will stay longterm to take that organization to the next level. And and that’s the that’s for me the butts and seats and then the next leaders. And I had a leader years ago that said to me, a seat player doesn’t know an A player when they see it, but they’re intimidated if they feel it. Whereas A players want to be challenged. They want said the organization they want to be number one. They have a hunger for it. Push me. But it’ll be frustrating for them because those people will take them out of their comfort zone. But they said, “But that’s the company I want to work for because they were willing to do that because you don’t always have to like the people you work with, but you have to respect them and you have to trust them.” Well, that’s huge. So, I’ve worked for some for some companies where my senior leaders were horrible, but I thought they were brilliant and I thought that they were good to their people and that was worth staying around for. I love it. Yeah. Look, Shalia, we ask everybody, you know, you’ve been on the show before, we ask everybody as we wrap up, if you were going to write a book about the state of things today, what would the title of your book be? I guess my first thought was live through it. Live it through it. All right. I I feel like the next but I I planned for it in the in the fact that I knew that there was a possibility or a scenario where our four years was going to be an era that HR and TA had never seen before. Yeah. And because it’s so chaotic. So if if there’s change and I love change and I do change. Yeah. But if it’s chaotic and it changes every day, it’s hard to plan it. And in TA, most of our stuff is built around planning, headcount, planning, resource planning, everything. It’s about it. So, what I’m going to say is you got to live, you got to live through it. So, you got to think about what’s going to happen on the opposite side. You got to think about how you prepare your team for it. And you got to understand that your leadership is in an era that they’ve never been in before. Because I will say, unfortunately, most CFOs I’ve met are bean counters instead of strategic financial planners. So they don’t think about scenarios for this, this, and this. They think about, “Oh my gosh, we’re going to hit a rough bump. Okay, let’s cut costs. Let’s do this.” They’re very reactionary. Yeah. So I’m going to say, you need to live through it because if this is your work, this is your passion, this is what you want to do. You got to see on the other side of that, you got to be optimistic. And everyone around you that you lead or around, you got to help them think through it. I love it. So live through it. Okay. Well, and who gets the first signed copy? Oh, God. I’ve lived through it. Okay, I’m going to give props out. I had a early manager who I still today and he probably doesn’t even know it was one of the best managers I had because he fought for the function. Okay. You want to you want to name him? Yeah. His name was Mark Strier. Okay. Mark Strier’s retired now. He was a mentor. He’s the person that made me understand that recruiting was not transactional. He made me justify do stakeholder analysis, metrics. I never had to do metrics because it was just buts and sees. He took me to a different level of engagement with clients and customers, but that was my first leader I ever saw that fought for the function. I love it. And most TA leaders don’t fight for functions. They don’t. I love it. Well, look, thank you so much for joining us, giving us the time. I know I know that lots to see, lots to do. I know you’re headed out the door. Look, if you want to hear past episodes, you want to see what’s coming up on the next episodes at CXR.org/mpodcast. Uh, and we’re just we’re just happy to connect with strong leaders who are willing to come in and just kind of share some behind the scenes and what’s going on in their head. Thanks so much. You’re welcome. All right. Thanks everybody.