Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.9 – Douglas Mvududu

There are people that are for AI and people that are against AI because of, you know, valid reasons. The way I’ve seen I see AI, I look at it as if you remember back in the day when you were doing history and you learned about the industrial revolution. There were people on both sides of the fence with the industrial revolution. People that didn’t agree with it, people that agree with it. When the internet came about, I remember dialup. Remember dialup internet came about. Same thing again. There were people that were for it for against it. To me, those are two of the biggest pillars in humanity that we’ve seen that have progressed us as human beings that have changed the way that we work and live do business. AI is the third. I truly think is going to transform and change the way we see things. But it all depends on how people use it. All right, y’all. We’re back for another episode of Employer Branding Unfiltered. I am your host, John Graham. It’s good to be with you. I um as always, I’m excited. But, uh today, uh I have a really really brilliant uh brilliant person to introduce y’all to. Um and I I just want to jump right in. Today’s guest is a dynamic leader in the world of talent strategy, employer branding, and workforce transformation. I’m excited to welcome Douglas and Voodoo, a distinguished recruitment strategist and talent acquisition expert whose career spans healthcare, corporate strategy, and digital marketing. Over the past decade, Douglas has built a reputation for designing scalable recruitment programs, driving inclusive hiring strategies, and aligning talent initiatives with long-term business goals. Uh, equipped with an MBA, Sherm CP, and CDP, Douglas brings together business insight, human- centered leadership, and a deep commitment to innovation in how organizations attract, engage, and retain talent. He’s contributed to national conversations on recruitment tech, optimized CRM and media strategies for impact, and remains a sought-after voice in shaping the future of hiring across industries. Whether it’s building pipelines, elevating brand visibility, or architecting strategies that center both people and performance, Douglas is a name you need to know. With that stated, I would love for y’all to give a warm welcome to the stage. Douglas Voodoo, welcome, sir. >> Thank you, John. That intro was wow. Um, I can’t believe you’re talking about me. Truly honored to be on here with you. >> Like, who me? I’m like, >> talking about me? I’m looking around. I’m like, is did he does he have the right person? >> I do indeed, man. I do indeed. It is a pleasure to have you, man. An honor and a pleasure for sure. How how are you in this moment? >> I am great. Can’t complain. God is good as always. Um I’m you know chugging along and you know taking care of health, family, life, and staying prayerful every day. How about you? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, the same. The same. Kids are back to school. Uh the MS is back to work after 5 years of being in the home, working in the home only. So, you know, we’re we’re in a great state of transition in the house right now. But >> we are we are doing well. Yeah. >> Well, yeah. I my my wife worked in healthcare for 16 years and she’s now transitioned to be a teacher. So >> that’s what my wife did in HR legit. >> Oh my gosh. >> She was sitting on a master’s degree in elementary education. She’s like, “Yeah, I think I want to go be a teacher now.” I’m like, >> “Yeah, that’s what she did, too.” That’s awesome. >> That’s Wow. We didn’t know this, folks. This is totally unplanned. >> This is Oh, this is going to be good. So, look. Look. We’ve got uh a lot to cover for sure, but I want to start I want to give people a sense of your background. Like how did you get into the EB recruitment marketing TA space, right? None of us went to school for it. So, how did you get here? You know, that’s a great question. You know, when you’re in your 20s, you don’t know it. Some some have it together and know what they want to do. I I didn’t I really didn’t know to be quite transparent what industry I wanted to go into. I knew I needed I wanted to do something within marketing, within sales. And during my transition of looking for a job, John, it was so hard. It was hard. You know, I was a dad, married, and I was just having the absolute hardest time trying to find a job. And I decided I’m going to go into recruitment. Before I was in sales. I just I did sales for years. Um, and loved it. It was great long hours, great people. But something something about my journey and the way I found it so hard just to be connected with someone to help me really made me want to say, you know what, what can I do for someone in my shoes at some point in their lives to help them find a job that’s going to change their lives? Um, and the company that hired me, which was in healthcare, truly changed my life because they gave me a chance. And I want everyone else to feel that people that are looking for something, I want them to feel that sense of joy, that light at the end of the tunnel is here. Um, so that’s what got me introduced to this because initially it was recruitment and then it was like, oh my gosh, this is recruitment and marketing. Um, and I just I just fell in love with it from day one. It is alluring, isn’t it? It’s like It’s like this is unlike anything that you know, it’s not one, it’s not the other, it’s both. And and that unto itself is exciting. It’s very exciting. And I I want to say people that are in the industry know that feeling. So, if you’re listening, you know what I’m talking about where you can’t explain the joy that it brings. Yes, it’s a very hard job. And I think we don’t want to discount that. It’s very hard. There’s a lot there’s a lot of competition. Um, a lot of unknowns, but man, do we love this work. >> For sure. For sure. So, to that point, so you spent some time doing recruiting as well. >> Yes, I did. >> Why you say like that? He’s like, “Yeah, yeah, I did.” >> It was. >> So, this just spoke volumes. >> It was It was It was tough. It was tough picking up the phone, calling, um, screening, trying to find the right fit. Recruiters have the hardest job on the planet because they have to satisfy multiple individuals, have to satisfy the candidate, >> have to satisfy the hiring manager, and they have to satisfy the organizational goals when they hire someone, they have to meet the expectations. So, >> so just knowing that you’re you’re effectively a matchmaker, uh, right between between, uh, hiring manager and talent. But then, >> right, but then at some point in your career, somebody says, “Hey, uh, we need to figure out how to make, uh, this company more attractive to specific talent. Uh, we need to figure out social, we need to figure out these events and these strategies while also thinking about very hard to to to find talent.” Uh, and I’m speaking to your healthcare background. Um, where did you start? Right. What was your who was your go-to? What playbooks did you find or have to create? >> I’ll be honest. I have to give kudos to my data at the time, and I’ll say her name. Her name is Nikki Kemp. She was a pillar in really molding me into what I have truly become. Um, so when I first started, I had I didn’t know anything about recruitment marketing at all. Like, I didn’t even know that existed. I didn’t know anything about employee branding. I just know people look for jobs and we try to help them find it. So I’ll go back to my introduction to to essentially recruit marketing. Remember posting jobs on Monsan Career Builder manually? He had to go every month and he had to post he had to man post manually. Um and then we also did events. Um we did hiring events for all the local hospitals. We also did conferences. So my first week at the job, I was actually sent to a conference in Vegas um for critical care for pediatrics. And that was my introduction to what encompasses, you know, recruitment marketing because I just thought events were events. I didn’t know there was more to it. And that’s when I started learning. >> So they threw you right in the fire is what I’m hearing. All right. >> Go figure out how to swim in the deep >> right into the and I would not have it any other way. I think without having to figure that out. >> Um, and trust me, they there was plenty of support, right? I don’t want it to seem like No, there was plenty of support, >> but I wanted to go and be thrown out to the wolves and get asked questions about the organization I was working for that had been in for about a week. >> Mhm. >> What What are your mission values? What do you have to offer? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and that’s how I that that made me want to learn more and you know and figure out how I can help people get jobs essentially. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I think in that period, right, you’re you’re also you’re new to the organization, right? You’re new to this work. So at some point you have yet to drink the Kool-Aid all the way to then fully be able to articulate the why you should join and and what is the experience going to be like, right? So in that transitional phase, it’s kind of like, you know, I’m reading the script, but I’m but I’m delivering it well and believable, right? But what point do you think that it sort of switches to like, okay, now I’m I’m new at the company, but there’s a point at which you feel like, okay, now now I am the company, right? What was that for you? >> I remember that the moment that happened. Um, when you work for a company that truly cares about you as a person, that you have co-workers around you that are supportive, you have this cohesiveness about you, that I played sports growing up and when you’re on a team, you know what that feeling is like being on a team. That’s what that felt like. What I saw when I saw what they were doing within the community, what I saw with what they were doing with their leadership growth and development, what I saw with intentionality of, hey, listen, where do you want to go? what do you want to do? And I said once again, how can I make other people feel this euphoria that I’m feeling right now? You know, we all have a honeymoon phase with organizations, right? There’s the first the first I want to say maybe the first 90 days honeymoon. Everyone is nice. Everyone is friendly. And you almost wonder how long is this going to last? But when it lasted a year, year and a half, two years, three years, this is where I belong. This is what I need to be doing. and I want other people to feel this type of environment. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, that’s that’s beautifully stated. I think that it’s um it is a when when the right uh candidate becomes the right employee at the right company. That’s a beautiful beautiful thing, right? >> Yeah. >> Um and you and you feel this you want to get up every day and go crush it at this organization and make it become everything it it can be. I I wonder I wonder if you go back to uh your candidate experience, right? If you think about what what were the markers for you, not at let’s let’s say not at any one job, but out of all of your uh over your career, what has really been the standout for you that made you feel like you know what, I made the right decision in in applying and I hope I get this job and when you got the job, it was like I’m so glad I’m here. The company I’m working for right now. Okay. Okay. What were some of the things? >> So, I they reached out to me via LinkedIn. Um, and it was, “Hey, are you looking?” No, I’m not looking. You know, I’m I’m happy with what I’m doing. I’m happy. I’m I’m I’m good. Um, and then was I know you are, but are you open to a conversation? This was an email. You know what? Why not? You know, my mentor always told me, you just have conversations. You never know when they’re going to lead. The gentleman I talked to was just just so kind and just so genuine. I think that’s the key. And you’re going to see this theme as I tell the story. Just how genuine he was with how he was explaining the organization. He wasn’t trying to sell me on joining the company. He was telling me listen your experience. This is what we need. We need someone like you. Um and if you feeling is mutual come on. So I interviewed with the leaders from day one. Once again, genuine human beings just you get on a call. You know, most interviews it’s it’s this stuffy feeling that you get. You have to be sure I’m not saying not professional, but there’s this there’s this tenseness that is sometimes it’s hard to explain. It didn’t exist, John. They were just people that I was meeting that were telling me about their experience with their organization and talking about my experience and what they need. Once again, genuine conversations. Um, and they reached out to me every week after that just, “Hey, what are you thinking? We really like you. Uh, here’s my phone number. Text me.” And I’m like, “Whoa, okay.” So, I obviously accept the offer. I start. And once again, everyone is genuine. I’m on a brand new team. I’m new. But they treated me like I was with them for such a long time. I didn’t feel like I don’t feel like an outsider. Four four and a half months in, there’s a lot I need to learn. like a ton I need to learn. But the way they’ve been understanding and saying, “Hey, you’ve been doing one thing for a very long time. This is a different industry. Take your time. We’ll get there, but learn the industry.” Um, just that genuine understanding just >> Yeah, it it gives me goosebumps when I think about it because I it it’s it’s almost euphoric once again, but once again, just the gen how genuine genuine people are. That’s that’s a rig. That’s something rare. most in most places in my opinion. >> Absolutely. No, I I I love that and it’s it’s what I’m hearing is the undertone is humanity, right? Was was critical, right? That that was the the the connective tissue there that made you even entertain beyond a singular conversation is how that human connection came through and it wasn’t a cell. It was let me get to know you, right? Let me let me also just It’s no pressure, right? It’s just a conversation. And I think you said something in your in your description of professionalism, right? And that I think this theme, funny enough, this week alone, this theme of professionalism is not a surrogate for humanity, right? Right. It’s it it doesn’t mean that you have to be void of humanity to be professional. I think there’s some level of disconnect from humanity that’s implied with being professional. And I think we’re in a great time now where that evolution of professionalism is is upon us. But that that sparked that thought for me as you were describing your experience. >> You are absolutely right. And what is professionalism? >> You know, >> nobody can define it, right? >> You can define it, but I think we all have an idea of what people mean when they say professionalism. But when you look at this day and age and how things are changing, um that definition is changing. It has to change, right? Because industries are different. Um if you go and I’ve never worked in the music industry, but there’s a different level of professionalism in the music industry or you go into hotels or into sports or into what we do whether it’s you know with healthcare. there’s just different levels of u professionalism but it’s really up to the individual and I think the people around to really craft what does that mean and is is it necessary um right um just in terms of how do you make people feel comfortable how do we put the human back in human resources I I think that’s a that’s something that people say over and over and over again but I don’t think a lot of people organizations really take it to heart um it’s it’s It’s tough. It’s tough. >> It can be. And I think you’re absolutely right. It depends on the company. It depends on the culture, the leadership, um the uh the onetoone management, right? Uh your your direct direct reporting manager can set the tone for what’s uh professional or expected and all those things. But I think you you you raised the I think the very valid point that um industries are changing, right? Nothing’s nothing’s staying the same. And I think we’re seeing rapid and accelerated pace. But before we get to the ubiquitous AI conversation, >> can’t wait. >> We’ll get there. It’s coming. But but as we think about like uh you know uh uh um what is it? Um recruiter pipelines. But um workforce planning that right this insert I roll here. Yes. So work workforce planning which is I think a myth but uh because because I’ve never seen it done well right where where people are like you know what we know exactly how many we need to hire over the next three to five years and and we have the pipeline and the bench built. Never say no. No. >> What What is What is the hardest part about that? Right. As somebody who’s been like tasked with building the pipelines and really understanding the needs for from the from the business side, but also knowing the availability and the realities in the market. What is the hardest part for for you in that regard? >> I think everyone being on the same page, >> you know. Um, >> start there. >> Yeah. It’s it’s you know you know every organization has different models um you know on how they measure you know workforce planning but there’s so many uncontrollable things that come with workforce planning. You can’t plan for someone deciding they want to go to another organization you know you can’t plan for finances saying this building is you know this one sector is going to shut down because of you know um progresses within technology. There’s certain things that are very, you know, that are intangible that you truly can plan for. But it is good because it get I think when I say the same page, I think also it’s how do you measure what you want? Right? So to someone’s 10, is it truly 10 or is it 15? Now we’re putting a number of seats when is it truly a number or is it truly a need? I’ve seen it where you know you >> strong >> you you have we need 10 people question is can the job be done by six no one ever wants to seem to answer that are we saying 10 because that’s been the standard um or do we truly need 10 and obviously it varies by industry and obviously varies on workloads you don’t want to overwork you know overwork your your your team members you want to make sure that everyone feels comfortable with the roles that they have but I think we get so stuck with the number that if you don’t meet that number, you failed. And my question though has always been but did you sustain what you needed for the community? If you know um did you get what you needed even though we had nine and you needed 10, were you able to function? Did you still make a profit? Uh did you still get what you needed out of your team members? So that’s always hard. That’s a great those are great points because I think you know the business will always say can you do it with less do do we have to have 10 I know you want 10 that’s the number you brought to me >> but do you really need 10 and then how do you know right you you won’t know if that number is arbitrary or if it was actually correct until you’re in it. >> Very true. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like also in addition to being on the same page, being flexible as well is required, right? >> Flexibility. >> Yeah, >> flex. >> Go ahead, please. >> And it also seems that there’s this magic reservoir that some leaders feel like their candidates just are there and you’re not finding them, right? >> They’re all in abundance just waiting to be called by you, >> just waiting. And that’s another disconnect, right? where it’s, you know, it’s it’s >> it’s hard to explain to people that don’t work in recruitment marketing what it looks like when you’re trying to get someone to work for you, >> right? It’s so many different touch points that you need 18 to 22. You hear 6 to9, I believe it’s 18 to 22 touch points. I always use the example of a lawn mower and if people from my old organizations that listen to this, they will know exactly what I mean when I say this. I was looking for a lawn mower. Um, and this probably happened to you. And I just kept on getting served ads for lawnmowers everywhere that I went online. I mean, I see ad after ad after ad. I finally ended up buying their lawnmower. Not because at the time I needed, you know what? Let me just do because I keep on getting these reminders. So, I probably saw these ads maybe 30 or 40 times, which is different because it wasn’t a need. But I think the same philosophy goes for a job. when someone is on the market or even not on the market, how do you ping them on a regular basis? What content are you providing them um on different platforms to make sure that they are aware of who you are as organization and then pull the trigger and say I want to work there. That’s where I need to be. You know, and and I think that there’s that even that’s changing, right? If if if we think about it, right? Let’s let’s just take this on a personal level. If we think about the last thing that you were influenced to buy, right? What was the last product might have been, you know, doom scrolling first thing in the morning or late at night and you’re like on Tik Tok or whatever and you’re like buy what was it that you saw and what platform was it? >> Okay. Um, you’re going to judge me here. So, we started getting we started going going uh we started doing cruises. >> Oh, three years ago. just found out about it 3 years ago. Had no idea that you could go on a boat and eat all you want and just not have to worry about anything, right? It was bizarre to me. Um I did it once with my family and we were like, “This is awesome. You just get on and I don’t have to I could you could just do whatever we want.” So anyway, I say all that to say this was last week. I’m doom scrolling again. I’m looking. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, there’s a new ship.” Oh, see? Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. You know what? I looked over to my wife and I just went and I just booked it. Uh because because I saw the ad. It’s next it’s next September, so don’t think it’s coming as soon. It was just like, you know what? >> Listen, >> next September sounds great. Once again, if I wasn’t on my phone at night, that would not have happened. Right. Right. So, but was it the ad? Was it like like was it something compelling? Like what was the style of the the ad that got you to >> Okay, so another story story time with Doug. >> Yeah, I love it. >> My my son sends me um Tik Tok videos, right? So I don’t have Tik Tok, so every time I’d have to click it and then go to it and then sometimes you can’t see it. Um so I was like, you know what? Let me just download this app so when it sends me stuff I can see it. So the first things I started looking at was cruises. So my feed is just full of people telling me about cruises, what they doing, their favorite restaurants. So that’s what I was doing as I was doom scrolling. I was like, “Oh, wow. I didn’t know that was on that ship. Oh, okay. Awesome.” Ad came up like, “Oh, special.” Click. It’s so It’s so good. >> So good. >> Yeah. And so easy. >> Yeah. >> That’s it. So it was influence I wouldn’t even say influencers people sharing their experiences in a category obviously that you have just been made aware of and the world has opened up to you about this gatekept experience this wonderland of all-inclusive cruises and now now somebody’s sharing their experience you’re already open to it right >> and now you’re getting confirmation and then boom that button pops up at the bottom says book here’s book your cruise today. >> And it was so easy, >> right? >> It was so It was so easy. That’s what’s crazy is obviously fill out the information, but it took me to where I needed to go and I filled out what I needed to fill out and I check out, just put the names or log in. And >> so now, now the question becomes, why is getting a job not that easy? >> I’ve been saying that for so long. I’ve been saying that. I you know I wish you could build a platform like Amazon where you have different jobs in your cart with mutual feelings right mutuality has to come into play recruiter likes a candidate hiring manager likes a candidate candidate likes the job so I have five different everything needs to be candidate centric I think sometimes we become very employee centric this is what we want that’s fine but at the end of the day your candidates are the ones that are dictating where they want to go in most cases depending on industry and so forth. So how can we make that easy for them? Right? If I was if I were to create an app right now based on mutuality, new word, I don’t even know if that’s a word. With my experience, I should have six, seven companies I want to work for. They all like my experience and at some point I hope I click apply but they already like me. So how do we shorten their time? We’ve all agreed that we like each other at some point, right? You talked about matchmaking earlier, right? So how how can we make matchmaking that easy for employees and employers to connect each other? I think we have so many things in between >> that make the process so much more harder especially for some of those hard to feel right when you think of a nurse. My my wife probably got text messages and emails at least 10 to 15 a day of companies trying to recruit her to go work with them. That’s just the nature of the industry when it comes to, you know, to to any type of, you know, um, healthcare. It’s a, it’s tough. So, how do you stand out? I think standing out is how do you make that process easy for them? >> If you think about >> I don’t think you’re wrong. I don’t think you’re wrong. I think it’s like dating. It’s a dating app essentially, right? Like, >> yeah, swipe. Is that what they’re doing now? Swiping. >> They just swipe. I hear. Yeah. Yeah. >> But, but it is it’s like we align on the core things, right? your mission, your values, your uh causes. I’m aligned. Cool. You like my experience. In fact, I mean, I think your earlier story was a perfect example. The company reached out to you by way of your DMs, right? How is that not dating? They slid in the DMs, right? And and then they had to build rapport, right? The f the first date was the call, right? Like this is I don’t know. >> I met the family. >> I met the family and at some point you said I do, right? >> Yeah, I do. Now you’re >> How is this not a dating app? That’s all I’m saying. We’ll figure that out. But I think but I think that that’s the question, right? We we’re leveraging the platforms of social and digital marketing to try and be like consumer marketing, right? uh serving up uh the experiences of existing employees as the the the the the social proof as to why you should want to work here and how this aligns with your um you know ethos and and all these things. But then there’s that whole process in between awareness to conversion that gets really complicated and messy >> metrics still hasn’t been solved yet. So I don’t know. I’m off my soap box. No, it’s that’s not an easy that’s not a easy thing to solve when you look at metrics. Metrics are amazing to have because you can track ROI at the end of the day. We want to see if what we do is working. But in essence, people make decisions based on feelings. I remember my my first in my sales job. I was 21 22 and I remember my sales manager said, “Doug, the secret to selling is people don’t like to be sold. Don’t try to sell anything to anyone. And I remember you said, “What you need to do, this is this was in auto sales. You need to sit down and you need to just take them on a trip. Talk about their family. Talk about them, what they need.” That’s when you start picking up what they need and want. Start having this conversation with them. You get to know them. You get to know them. People like talking about themselves. They talk about themselves. They like you. They like you, Doug. They buy from you. So, how can we take that same philosophy into what we do, right? Let’s ask our our candidates, what do you want? We kind of know because we do the research. We have all of these research we’ve done on candidate behavior, candid experience, you know, when you talk about personas for different industries and what people are looking for. How can we take that and now make it the core of our organization from social, from digital, um, from, you know, face-to-face interactions and really delivering to them what they want to without them asking most of the time, right? You just tell them, you know, you just have those conversations, you deliver exactly what they need. Are you looking for work life balance? Check. Are you looking for company that cares for you? Check. Um, are you looking for company that compensates you well? Check. a place where you can truly be yourself. Check. I think we over complicate a lot of these things. >> You’re you’re absolutely right. Um and I think I think if I’m if I’m giving credit to most companies today that are at least aware of employer brand, but I would even go further and say they have a strong employer brand, are actively out there doing recruitment marketing. They’re doing all those things, right? So much so that a lot of companies are sounding the same. But wonder wonder if right the the real experience as we know and we’ve heard the adage people don’t leave good companies they leave shitty managers right right so so where is that opportunity then to give the candidate who showcased interest right at the high level I like what you do I like your product I like uh the way you present the employee experience cool but my dayto-day is going to be shaped by this one person by and large where are we getting that kind of other than like glass door, right? And that’s usually not the greatest place to understand what the management experience is, but >> yeah. What are your thoughts there? Like how have you sort of removed the veil on what the day-to-day experience will be at down to the manager level, >> having people show what their day is like, having true employee testimonials, right? People sharing their stories. I think that’s a missing piece in a lot of things, right? We have these cliches, right? and you know slogans that we want to use consistently and we don’t have employees talk about their true experience people do understand that sometimes the job is going to suck John sometimes your bosses you and your boss are going to have a disagreement how do we bring that realism to life in a way that people can understand that this is normal I think we are so stuck all organizations are stuck on perfection and there’s no such thing as perfection And you know share your flaws, right? Obviously the you know the flaws that share your flaws and let people know we are working on that. We know that this is something that we need to work on and guess what? We are going to work on it. We’re not going to do it today or tomorrow or next month or next year. It’s a journey for us all. So come join us on this journey when we try to fix this. So the messaging is so is the messaging is so important and how authentic your conversations how authentic your employees are with what they share and on platforms. So how do you day in the lives how do you do that? Is it glass door or is it testimonials? We know with testimonials no one’s sitting down for a 2, three minute video to listen to all of that, right? I need this served up in 15, 30, 45 seconds. If the timeline is not aligned, I’m checking out. So, consistent messaging. >> So, we you and I both know this, right? People that are practitioners in this space know this. And yet, it’s so rare to see a company lean into their flaws, right, as a point of attraction. There there was a really good example um that we used with uh with a client recently around Goldman Sachs. Okay. And I’ll I’ll bring up some of their uh some of their stuff, but essentially um Goldman is known for Before I even say anything, what do you know about Goldman Sachs? Shouts out to Goldman Sachs. We we love you. We we’re not, you know, we have no ill will, but this is just known in the in the world. >> I don’t know much about Goldman Sachs. I know they finance and that’s about it. >> Cool. So the reality is that Goldman is known for being one of the hardest environments to work in, right? Especially for early career talent. like three harsh truths are um that are commonly known especially in the the high finance um industry is that there you know extremely long work hours is like a mandatory I’m talking like 80 to 100 hour weeks with little sleep or personal time attached to that high stress and burnout um there there’s even been mentionings of uh anxiety physical pain uh stress and poor right and poor work life balance like all of these things and then aggressive and competitive culture. So much so that like uh people are so competitive in there it’s it’s cut it’s described as cutthroat and like even your manager will bully you and they know it right. But but but but then you have the flip side of that is like well why would anybody want to run through brick walls to work there? Well, the benefits of working there that people commonly know is the prestige that comes with having Goldman Sachs on your on your resume, right? And the opportunities that they’re exposing you to from day one, the doors you get access to, right? >> Uh comp and benefits you’re getting paid ridiculous amounts of money. >> It’s stupid. But then also the learning and professional growth, right? The the things that you’re learning will be valuable not just there as you move up, but also anywhere else you go. Point being is they don’t run from those harsh truths. They know it. And it’s a point of pride. Like if you get in here, because by the way, last year they had over 300,000 people apply and they only hired less than 1%. >> That’s incredible, >> right? And and they’re not running. >> That’s what I’m saying. They’re not the only ones, right? The Netflix, the the Amazons, the you name it. There’s cultures that are so distinctly forthright about who they are and who they’re not. And people are still running through brick walls to try and join. But yet most companies don’t do that. They don’t do that. I mean, >> why do you think that is? >> You smear my perfection, my my perfection. I think that’s what it is. Um, we don’t talk about bad stuff. We don’t do that. We just share the good stuff. That’s with anybody. No one walks around talking about, “Oh, this is not what I’m good at or I’m terrible at this.” People always want to talk about the things that they’re good at. So, it’s more of a I think it’s more of a human survival instinct that I sounds like Goldman Sachs and Netflix and all these companies that have those cultures. They’re okay with that. They let you know upfront, here’s a line. This is how we are. You don’t like it, don’t work here. But these are the type of people that we’re looking for, and this is the these are the work environments. But to your point, this is what you get in return. Comp, benefits, prestige, all that is coming at a cost. Once you laid that out, I think people are okay with venturing and applying as opposed to someone finding out that, you know, that um that perfect role that was created through all of the ads and all the testimonials that they saw. I get here and I’m like, what did I get myself into? That’s when you start having your 30, 60, 90day separations. Your numbers are all off because you didn’t you weren’t upfront about what the culture is your culture is like, >> right? >> You showcase your culture in a way that is not genuine, >> right? Yeah. So, that’s a that’s a really interesting point and I think you you call out a couple of things that I think we should probably dig into, right? So, one, um, companies only wanting to show the positive, the rosy, right, the the the perfect. Um, but we all know that they’re not, right? They know that they’re not. So, so technically, they’re still selling a false narrative, right? >> Yeah. The other thing you mentioned, and I think this is important as well, is that not being upfront or forthright about who you are as an organization will most certainly run your attrition numbers through the roof, right? >> Yeah. So, so, right, and the cost of that is insane, right? We all know it’s cheaper to keep them than it is to attract them, right? and and to and and to bring him in, but yet in still the same plays. And I think there’s sort of this I don’t even want to this might be controversial, but I think there’s still this sort of low-level sort of uh arrogance that like, well, they need they need us. They need they need a job, right? So, we can tell them anything and they’ll get in here and they’ll >> and and and it’s true because it’s like why you look why are you looking for a job? Yep. You’re looking for a job because you need to feed your family. You need to eat. So, we are hiring. So come on here, figure it out when you get here. Um, so I struggle with that too. You know, just like it, we’ll go back to the dating conversation, right? You know, when you’re dating someone, we talked about, you know, this being very similar to dating. The same thing too is if you don’t tell the person or show the person who you truly are to your core, this it this is not going to last, right? you know honeymoon phase obviously everyone does you know open the door I mean I still open the doors uh but those small things you know that you dating your wife essentially right if you don’t do those things what happens if you say you do them but then when you get in there you don’t you know you don’t do it it’s not it’s not going to last so I say I shared that comparison with this as well is be obviously you don’t want to show all of your flaws, right? There’s some flaws where you’re like, “Okay, this is this is a work in progress. This is going to take some time for us to get there.” But the other things we can say, you low hanging fruit. What’s the lowhanging fruit here? >> What is all long hanging fruit? And how can we get a win out of this low hanging fruit? Admit it, work on it, >> and move on to the next thing. Cuz there’s probably a list of things that we can all work on personally, professionally. Um, so organizations need to look at things the same way too is we are not going to be perfect. And I think we need to get, let’s just put that out there. There is no perfect company, perfect organization, perfect person. Um, be okay with your flaws and tell people you’re going to work on them and then take action on those. >> Yeah. Yeah. Legal will never let that happen. >> This is true. This is true. Yeah. No, >> this is true. No. No. We are not going to pay a million dollars. Okay. No, we’re not going to do that. >> Right. Right. Right. No, no, no. I I I think you’re absolutely spot on though and I think there is a way to get legal and in into the into the fold as it were and just be like well here what can we absolutely not say >> and then let’s say everything else >> 100% partnership right is how you partnered throughout the whole company >> consensus understanding of hey this is this is what we because we all do surveys yearly or by annually whatever that looks like we all know what our employees are saying and that’s another missing missing piece sometimes with employer branding um is looking at some of that data and unveiling that peeling the onion into understanding who you truly are as organization. If telemarketing, you know, employer branding isn’t talking to their, you know, um those departments, you know, that’s going to be very difficult because once people come, those things come to life. They come to life and they experience it. % and that’s I think that is the the the function of your EVP right to really peel back the layers. Who are you at your core? Who are you not? What can you stand on as a as an >> as an external facing brand? Um what can you >> and what should you pull back from? Right. But >> but I think also to that point and and you said the word that I think is highly uh overlooked because there’s a lot of savvy required with this work in terms of consensus building and buyin. What have you found to be sort of that golden key as it were to getting the leadership the executive buy in to move some of your initiatives forward. Um honestly it comes to just having an honest first of all having an honest conversation. If you have leaders I’ve had the pleasure of having leaders who are very open to having a conversation and then showing showing your case. Right? You know what doc go ahead let’s let’s figure that out. I need you to I need data. But we all work on data. Our leaders work on data. So let’s let’s show the data. What is the data telling us? Do a deep dive in that data. What is the story? Once you can unpeel your story um and share it in a way that makes sense to your leaders that has worked for me abundantly where you don’t have initial buyin but once you tell your story and narrate it the way you want it in a truthful way and show the benefits of your solution. I think a lot of times we go some we go into into these conversations without solid solid solutions. It’s have have a solution. If they don’t agree with it, that’s okay, >> right? >> Yeah. >> You kind to work together with that. Yeah, >> that is fair. So, how do you showcase? Okay, so something like employer brand, which often, you know, people want to tie it to hiring, right? How how many hires did we get from that campaign? >> When when it’s not that cut and dry, right? Like we can’t necessarily say that that campaign on that platform produced x amount of hires >> cuz that’s not what employer brand does, right? And there’s a whole >> machine in between first view versus right offer. >> Point being, how do you explain that though to the executive who you’re going to, you know, ask for $400,000 in this year? >> Show them the journey. You show the journey of the candidates that you brought in. And I think that’s a critical piece is show them the benefits of the candidates that you brought in. Right? Candidates being the key. We have impressions. We have clicks. We all we have all of this stuff. But what’s really tangible is the candidates that you’ve managed to attract with all of your efforts. It’s not a I go on Indeed and I do everything on Indeed. I apply. I get hired. It’s a story. It’s where did they go? You saw you saw ad okay on Facebook. What did you do after that? Oh, did some retargeting. So, you were on ESPN and then you saw another ad for us. Did you click on it? Probably not. But then you saw a commercial. You were at the movies, you know, um, and you saw a commercial for this organization, employer branding. Okay, saw that. Um, now these are the stories that we tell. You went on Indeed and saw a job, you clicked on it, didn’t quite apply, but then you went on Glass Door and you started reading up on the organization. You went on LinkedIn. Oh my gosh, there’s more. You have your employees sharing everything about what they doing not at work but why they enjoy being at work. Employees advocating for you, right? That’s part of, you know, um part of the whole gamut of what we do. So, how do you showcase all of that? Now, the critical part is having technology that can do that, that can tell the story. If you don’t have the tools to tell your story, it is going to be difficult. We were in a space a long time ago where we didn’t have technology that could show us where people are coming from. Essentially, we call last touch, right? Where was the last touch, which is not to me a true measure of what it was an influencer, but that’s that’s not where they made the decision. They made the decision a long time ago by the time they got there. So, how do you showcase every place that they’ve touched within that journey? We have in my last were able to showcase all of that and just show okay so this is where people are going this is what we’re seeing here are all the trends this is how many views we’re seeing this how many applications we’re getting these applications turn into X highires and we reached our goal so it’s a very it’s I don’t want to say it’s complex because I’ll be you know I’ll be overstating it but it’s a very very touchy subject because you can’t put it’s very hard to put a price on a click it doesn’t make sense to someone who doesn’t a hiring manager to say well the cost per click for this one is $2.17 to them. It it doesn’t mean anything. It’s but where’s my applicant to my hire? So I sell that to say it is very it is very challenging but I think the important thing is what’s worked for me is showcasing that journey the different touch points everything that we’re doing holistically and in unison. You don’t you don’t just run one campaign in silo. When you’re running a campaign you activate everything, right? you want to make sure that you’re capturing as many candidates as you can to apply and then showing that role over and over again. So there’s a lot there and I think that journey piece is the storytelling of of how we get there I think is often lost right internal not the external but internal to the stakeholders who are decision makers who have the need as clients let’s say um I think and what I’ve seen su become successful um conversions to budget to go and do some expansive employer branding initiatives are when you can remind an executive of their own candidate journey, right? Before they were executives, of course, because they just got a phone call. So, uh, or at some dinner, right? But, um, but but when they were candidates or even just thinking about their buying the the last thing they purchased journey, like that’s that’s so powerful. I was at a conference recently and uh bunch of employer brand uh leaders and I did a a a session called uh the employer branding operating system >> and we’re talking in in between the session and I’m I’m with someone and I said you know how how have you gotten your um your leadership on board with um with AI right um or not AI with employer branding and she, you know, she was like, well, you know, I was explaining and she got really like technical and I was like, okay, cool. But I was like, what if what if you got like reminded them how they learned about chat GPT, right? And if we go, it’s it’s still recent enough, right? Where people are like, yeah, I remember who introduced it to me or I remember what I saw or whatever. And I said, take them back to that, right? First they heard about it, then they’re like, yeah, whatever. They ignored it, maybe. And then at some point multiple people in their orbit started to talk about this thing. Somebody shows them this thing. They try it for the first time and their world explodes. They’re like, “Holy hell, >> right?” And now they are daily adopted users of it. >> Point being, somebody they trusted had to tell them multiple times. Multiple people’s had to tell them. Employer brand is no different, right? And I think we’ve talked about that. >> That’s a great point. You see, it’s not just one. It’s not just one touch point to your point. It could be 18, right? We’ve seen the numbers there, but it’s so many things that have to be right in order for that high quality right person to come through. >> Well, that’s a whole another conversation, sir. >> And yes, you’re right. You’re right. And I want I want to I wanted to touch on that. So, you you mentioned tools, right? and and I think AI is the the tool set of the day that companies are sort of racing to grasp and and harness and leverage. How have you seen it shift uh the work you do dayto-day? Man, it’s improved efficiency, you know, so you have people on on I don’t want to call it a fence, but let’s let’s call it what it is. They have people that are for AI and people that are against AI because of, you know, valid reasons. Um, the way I’ve seen I see AI, I look at it as if you remember back in back in the day when you were doing history and you learned about the industrial revolution, there were people on both sides of the fence with the industrial revolution. People that didn’t agree with it, people that agree with it. When the internet came about, I remember dialup, remember dialup internet came about, same thing again. There were people that were for it for against it. To me, those are two of the biggest pillars in humanity that we’ve seen that have progressed us as human beings that have changed the way that we work and live, do business. AI is the third I truly think is going to transform and change the way we see things. But it all depends on how people use it, how you use those tools. So, I use it to learn. I use it sometimes for efficiency reasons. Give you a simple example. Sometimes you can’t get words out. You know what you want to say in the email, but the words just don’t come out the way you want them to. It just it makes sense to you, but like does it make sense to them? Take that prompt, drop it in chat GBT. Tell me what it shows you. It’ll be clear, concise most of the time. uh we use co-pilot um in my role and that’s what I use it for sometimes when I have to you know when I have to reach out to leaders or if I have to explain something I want to make sure I get my point across that’s what I utilize but I say all that to say there’s more with AI that I think organizations need to be to start thinking about now because if they don’t adapt obviously with with safeguards right you want to make sure it’s the right tool for your organization um people you’re going to get left behind you cash on 5 years from now, someone is going to be 5 years ahead of you. So, yes, tread lightly, get legal involved, and make sure it’s a tool that you need, but make sure you’re also utilizing it because this is the future. I was reading something the other day, they said in in China, um, kids that are six and over are being mandated to have AI courses and classes, uh, as part of their curriculum. So if they’re doing it at that age now, why should why should we run away from because this is not going anywhere, unfortunately. Um AI is here. It’s here to stay. Um but to answer your question, yes, I I wish we could use it more, but I get why we don’t because there’s so many tools out there that can make jobs so efficient. >> Absolutely. So much so. I’m I’m reading articles now where um candidates are leveraging AI in ways that that our industry had no clue would be used for. I mean, I’ve heard stuff as wild as like one candidate having multiple applications in same name or same resume, slightly different name portrayal, whatever, got interviewed for all five of the apps he put in. One person showed up wasn’t the person who was interviewing different person shows up for job that they got right like crazy of excuse me. So here >> that’s right. So so peep this here’s here’s my wild ass theory of of AI where this takes our industry right now. We’ve got all the job boards, right? >> Mhm. >> And it still requires company has vacancy post job to job board job board shows to all candidates. Fine. Well, what if when we get into like true deep dive agentic AI vacancy is known by the company’s agent. Agent goes and speaks to candidates’s agent with candidate is asleep. agents talk, negotiate, candidate wakes up to a job. >> I could I mean I could see that happening. >> It’s plausible at this point. We will be we will see probably in our lifetimes we’ll be retired >> in our lifetimes where the candid the interview process the like the the the need to put a wreck in all >> done. I’m going to go on another tangent too. I I just thought about this. I I’ve been I’ve been re I’ve been doing a little research on this as well. When we think about SEO, right? SEO is ruling right now, right? Well, has ruled for gener for a very long time. >> Sure. >> Now, there’s generative engine optimization which leverages AI for relevancy. Now, on my phone, I don’t know what type of phone you have. I have a Pixel phone. Um, Google I know. Oh, come on. It’s >> Oh my gosh. Green bubbles. I’m the I’m I am the green bubble. But so before I could go on my Google, you know, there’s there’s a little Google thing on your phone where you can go and search. Makes it very easy to go on Google and search. Now it’s AI where it’s it’s circumventing going on Google’s on on the search engines and it’s AI giving me responses based on validated places that it’s crawling to throughout this >> the worldwide web and interwide web >> so relevancy it’s it’s oh my gosh so there’s Bingbot optimized I mean there’s so much >> perplexity is my search anymore. I’m I’m straight to Perplex and I just got their uh browser Comet uh and it is insane like real time uh contextual AI on the pages you’re on email answering like it it’s ridiculous at this point. So to your point now what does SEO look like? >> What do they look like? >> Where are you searching if Google’s no longer the default? >> People are people will go different places, >> right? They will use AI to to your point apply for jobs, use AI to search for jobs, use AI to summarize what jobs they need to be applying to, right? And they would take it, they will take that advice and they will run with it. So a shift is coming within the next 10 to 15 years that you know if we don’t get a hold of it now and understand and grasp it and try adapt as quickly as possible, it’s going to be very challenging for organizations to compete with competitors. Um, but blessed to work for a company that embraces all of that and says, “Hey, let’s figure it out. Let’s let’s figure out what we can do with all of this stuff, right? And and make it a great a great place for everyone.” So, >> it’s exciting. I’m excited. >> As am I. As am I. And and I think we’re we’re two people who embrace uh the technologies of our day rather than be fearful of them. Um I I do want to to to recognize that we we are almost at time, right? And I want to be respectful respectful of the things you need to do within the time you have. Sir, >> appreciate you. Appreciate you. >> Um, so I will say what what is your advice I would say to uh to two people. One >> um somebody who’s just coming out of school early in their career and maybe not aware of the space that we’re in, employer branding, recruitment, marketing, right? What is your advice to them um about the opportunity they have in this space? advice is lean all the way in and be a sponge. This is such a great space where you could learn so much. I think it encompasses a lot of things. You encompass all what we do encompasses marketing, technology, HR, you wear so many different hats. You get to do so much. The day is not the same every single day. Your day is different because the company has different needs. So if you like if if you in tune with that kind of workspace where you can be innovative, you can use the latest technology, you can be a marketer, you can be creative, you can think, you can be strategic, you can create strategy plans for the future, you can create strategies for now. It’s such an an amazing space to be lean in, be a sponge, and don’t be afraid to embrace the unknown because also a lot of this is unknown. We still I think I learn every day that I think I know I learn every day. Um I’m like, “Oh, I didn’t know we could do that.” Um and also be okay with failing. I failed so many times in my career. I can’t even put them in in words. Um but I’m, you know, thank God I’m still here, but I’ve learned so much and this made me such a stronger person. Don’t be afraid to fail. That would be my biggest one. >> It’s really rich. Thank you. Second person to the executive who has an idea that they need an employer brand but isn’t quite really sure what it is, why they really need it. How do they justify it? What is your advice to them? Be curious on what it is. I think that’s where it starts. Be curious. I think you need to be curious about what your teams are passionate about. When you get to meet the leaders within talent the talent marketing space and you talk to them, you will see the passion oozing out of them. get an understanding of what that passion is and how it can help you achieve your goals as a leader um to impact your bottom line because essentially that’s what this is. And when it comes to human resources, talent marketing, our value comes in keeping employees, spending less money on getting them right. You spend less money, you save money doing that. So what can we do to make sure number one, we are keeping the employees that we have. we attracting the right ones so that way we’re not replacing people over and over again. But be curious, really lean into your, you know, to your talent marketing leaders and get to understand what makes them tick and why it makes them tick because it is something special that not too many people can really understand. >> I love it. I love it. And with that, my friend, I will say thank you. Uh I have certainly been on a journey in this conversation and I hope our listeners have as well. Uh for those who are not connected uh to this uh fine gentleman uh that we’re speaking to today uh where can they connect with you? We’re best >> you can um you can reach me on LinkedIn. Uh my DMs are open. >> Slide in them DMs. They’re >> slide in them DMs. Yep. Yeah. We can connect. We can talk everything. employer brand talent marketing AI I’m a sponge so I would love to talk to practitioners within the space >> Doug thank you so much for your time your talent your energy your cander um and your willingness to say yes to coming on to Employer Branding unfiltered for those who are not yet subscribed I need you to hit that subscribe button um hit it gently in fact don’t even hit it just tap it right let’s remove the violence from that action Uh and and make sure you you visit shaker.com where you can find all of these episodes from EB unfiltered uh where we’re continuously talking to brilliant minds uh shaping the industry of employer branding and recruitment, marketing and talent attraction. So until next time folks, be safe, enjoy, and uh we’ll talk to you soon on the other side. Cheers.