Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.8 – Tynecia Walker

A lot of people look at DEI and think that DI practitioners have a disconnect from business. And it’s like we just all want to hold hands and sing kumbaya and it’s like we’re business professionals. I understand that we have to drive a profit. I’m not disconnected from that. >> And also humanity is at stake here, right? And so >> that’s right. >> And I strongly believe that we can do both. I think that we can have profitable businesses. People can feel like the best of themselves serve the organization and come away with some dignity. [Music] All right, family. We’ve got another episode of a brilliant, brilliant, absolutely radiant guest today. And I am so happy and excited because I’ve known her for quite a while. So much so I can’t even remember where we met, how we met. We’ll figure that out. But um one of the most brilliant minds in two spaces and we get the luxury of hearing about both of those experiences. Today, uh I am happy to introduce y’all to Tyia Walker. >> Tyia, welcome to the vision. Absolutely. >> We’re here. >> Excited to be here. Can’t wait to get into it. Yes. Yes, indeed. So, all of our guests who visit the vision lab start at the inspiration wall. The inspiration wall has a bunch of different items that really whatever jumps out to them and speaks to them most, they get to take that item onto the show with them. And Tanisha, share with the people what you what called your name today. >> Yeah. So, I chose the happiness equation. Um, in part, the the bright yellow jumped out to me. I love color and >> I just feel like happiness and joy is such a driver of how I navigate life. >> Um, and so I that’s why I chose this one. >> I love it. >> Fantastic. You know, it’s funny. My wife and I were just talking about happiness and uh I sent her this podcast that I was watching and this gentleman who’s an economist of all people says uh I think the challenge is we’ve been chasing happiness >> but what we should be chasing is contentment >> and that really resonated cuz it’s like happiness is a fleeting thing. >> Absolutely. >> You can have it for a moment >> but then you’re on to the next thing that’ll make you happy. But if you’re content with what you had, I don’t know how you feel about it. >> I think that’s true. So to me, I do I I would say happiness is fleeting. >> Yes. >> But then when I say joy, like joy for me is an anchor. >> I love that. >> So it’s like this thing could be going wrong. Traffic, you know, the manager’s in a bad mood. The dog took too long in the yard. But my anchor is that I get to decide, right? And I get to say, I’m not having a bad day. I had a bad morning. I had a bad few minutes, but I want to experience this short amount of time that I have on the earth with joy. I want to be excited about it. I think it’s my right. Um, and I’ve earned it. So, that’s how I choose to navigate my life. >> Say less. Got it. So, let’s get into some things here. So, you you have you have been in the employer brand world. >> Yes. >> You now reside in the de andi world. So the first question I’m going to ask you is how are you in this moment? >> And then I’m going to ask you who are you in this moment? >> Yeah. >> To share with the people, give a little background. >> Wow, that’s great. So I am well in this moment. Um also strategically well because >> I watch less news than I’ve ever watched before. >> Um I am linked to community. Like that’s a a strategy like not just hey how are you but just the small things like my kid did this and how your family’s doing like being linked to other people that are doing the work >> so that we don’t all go crazy. So so I’m well. Um I also don’t have a problem saying when I’m not well which helps me to be well like this this isn’t right. This isn’t working for me. You know you can’t send me that at Friday at 4:00 and ask for a result. um don’t ask me to show up at a speaking engagement 3 minutes before the speaking engagement. So these are things that keep me well um during this time. Prayer >> um the reality that you know we’ve been here before >> and we survived. >> Listen. >> Um so those are things that keep me well. And who am I? I think it changes um at times I navigate the space personally as being first generation US >> whether or not I keep you know my heritage flag in my rearview mirror or not um some days it’s from a professional perspective of you know we have I have to be equitable and draw the line for the entire organization >> or do I just focus on me so so who I Um I usually know that but I don’t know it. It’s a it’s a number of things. So >> that’s right. Multiaceted. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> So let’s talk about it. You your current role >> DEI leader. >> Yes. >> Uh for a very large international company. >> Yes. >> Um it’s kind of a tough time right now for y’all. So, so how are you navigating the everchanging landscape uh both within your organization but as a practitioner? >> So, one of the things that I love about my role is that I had an opportunity to come into the role as the first lead. >> Okay. >> So, I was able to set the standard for it. >> That’s right. And for me at the base of it, and I’ve seen this in some of uh your posts and you you know you talk about humanity at the center of it and this kind of goes back to my volunteer life of community organizing and so at the center was always the humanity of it like Dr. West says like who’s catching the most hell, you know, >> start there. >> And so it’s always been centered around that. So I think that’s how we were able to keep the work going. Um because we we do have origins outside of the US. Our approach was different or the I wouldn’t say the approach because that wasn’t necessarily strategic before I got there, but our attitude around it >> sure >> was less metricbased and consensus and that’s just how we do business. And so coming to this time there wasn’t such a shift from a business perspective. >> Then you have the employee base, right? >> Um which is different. You have perception, attitudes, things like that. And so for me, the organization had come to a point where they realized, okay, the labor market has shifted. We would like to still participate in the labor market. >> You’re going to need those. >> And so we are going to keep going forward with the work. Um, so the way that that affected me and the work that I do was pretty minimal. >> Good. >> Praise God for that. Um but there are still attitudes and perceptions to contend with based on what’s happening. Um so what we’ve been doing is really widening that marketing because I wouldn’t say the approach has widened. It’s always been culture. It’s always been experience. >> But being strategic about the messaging to say um all more often. >> We’ve always said all. We always meant all. you you know. >> Mhm. >> Um we have the picnic at work. You’re invited. Right. >> Sure. >> Um but more strategically um and to center things like men’s health and just broaden that marketing lens so that people can see how they can tap into it even if they don’t >> belong to an under represented group. >> So that’s fascinating on a couple of levels. First and foremost, the show is employer branding unfiltered. Why do I have the head of BB and II on employer branding unfiltered? >> Share a little bit about your background. >> Yeah. >> In employer branding. >> Yes. So I came into employer branding around 2018 and during that time it was very um corporate social responsibility focused and the voice was very stakeholder concerned and very marketing the organization as whatever product it is that you produce. And you were in the pharma space >> and I was in pharma and highly regulated. Oh my gosh. Highly regulated. So the idea and the attitude like let’s connect to people and how they work was like why would we do that you know and so I love where this space is now because it is more consumerbased. It’s like why would I want to work for your company whereas when we started it’s like tell them why they want to work for us you know. >> That’s right. That’s right. >> And it was like that doesn’t resonate. So now I think after the chipping away you know companies have started to see how it resonates with groups and so that’s how I started >> and because at that time >> well I it is still it is still but it was more relevant at that time that DEI was a ton of window dressing right and so there were always requests or people images of people who look like me >> have hair like me But I sat outside the interview rooms and I’m like, that’s but that’s not real. >> That’s not who you’re bringing in. >> That’s right. >> So why are you looking? And so that’s when I started to see the disconnect from, oh, you’re saying this, but you’re doing something else. >> And so then I started, you know, consulting and advising on uh diversity. I wouldn’t say inclusion, diversity. And we went we were going to some events and um it was with the Hispanic organization and I’m like would you like a banner in Spanish? Oh my gosh. Yes. You know just little things like that. >> Sure. >> And so it’s interesting because even as I’m in the diversity and inclusion space, you don’t lose the EB lens. So you just really take it with you wherever you go. >> That’s right. That’s right. And and I wanted I wanted people to see that parallel or that that natural organic connection. >> Um because I think both of those roles require you to be very uh in tune with the people. Mhm. >> Um being a good listener to what are the needs of the people in order to effectively whether it’s impact program or programming >> whether it’s policy or structural or cultural >> EB has such a a strong under uh pinning a undercurrent of culture and de andi being I think a um director of culture >> shaper of culture e becomes a great articulator and expressor of it. So I think you having that background and that skill set, how have you brought that into your work in DE and >> I’m always thinking about the markets >> and so I think a lot of people look at DEI and think that DI practitioners have a disconnect from business, >> right? >> And it’s like we just all want to hold hands and sing kumbaya. And it’s like we’re business professionals. I understand that we have to drive a profit. I’m not disconnected from that. And also humanity is at stake here, right? And so >> that’s right. >> And I strongly believe that we can do both. I think that we can have profitable businesses. People can feel like the best of themselves, serve the organization, and come away with some dignity. >> Ideally, >> I I mean, it’s it has to be deliberate, but I think that we can do it. And so for me, I’m always looking at how does this resonate? How does this represent your organization? Are you being truthful? Are you growing into that space? >> And you know, we’re adults, so tell me the story and I can figure out if this is something that’s going to work best for both of us or if I need to find another organization. So for me, it it’s hard to even explain it because it’s just so matter of fact. It’s just always like playing in the background. >> Sure. >> Yeah. But I can imagine there’s some challenges with that altruistic vision >> always. It’s >> the happiness question folks. >> So talk to me about that. I mean we can we can start with January of 2025. >> Big shift, right? Cuz >> 2020 also big shift. >> Sure. >> But now 2025 comes. We’re reading I’m sure you’re talking to other practitioners. uh we’re seeing the headlines, nobody knows what’s going on as chaos, but yet your organization says, “You know what? We’re going to stay the course.” >> What about internally? What about some of the employees who now maybe felt like they have a voice? >> Sure. So, the interesting thing is the organization that I come from and the industry that I work in, um they’ve always felt like that. So, January just really said like, “Here’s a match.” um and through some of our I would say workshops and relationship building. So the first thing that I did when I came into this role um was travel all over the United States to meet people so that diversity and inclusion didn’t feel like something coming from corporate from someone who doesn’t know where I work, how I work, my story. I mean I’ve been in towns that I never would have dreamed of going to. um heard stories that are very much um maybe opposite of my life experiences, but getting to know people and share with them like this is how it’s going to lift the organization. And one of the things that I’ve said is do you want to work here forever because I don’t I would like to retire one day. >> But I take a lot of pride in the work that I do. So I’d like to see the work that I do continue. Sure. >> And it may continue with somebody who doesn’t look like me. >> Is that something that you can like would you rather see the work die? Why would you rather see your lifelong legacy continue? >> That’s a hell of a question >> because that’s the reality. >> Yeah. >> Our labor market says that you may be the person who succeeds you may not look like you. But I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears missing basketball games, missing, you know, different things. And so you want the work to continue. Especially in our industry, people take a lot of pride in what we produce. And so just telling stories like that and engaging people where they are to see how maybe maybe this does include me a tiny bit. And I don’t know what the conversations that they’re having at their dinner table and with friends in their community, but I know that we’re able to get to some type of some sort of consensus when we when we engage. So we’ve been able to attach let people um attach themselves to the messaging and the experience. So that has we’ve haven’t seen as much in the comments and the town halls as we used to see. So >> so it seems like it’s starting to work. >> So there’s a couple things in there. So I love that you were intentional about going to connect with real people all over the country to get a pulse of the organization and their perspective on on things. Um which I think is sorely needed and often times overlooked especially with the sort of cascade hand down. >> Sure. Sure. >> Here’s your culture. Go live it. >> Yeah. >> Um >> I also like that uh that you translated that into messaging. >> So I hear the the EB EB >> coming through the employer brand coming through. >> How did you approach that messaging? not necessarily just from like the architecture of it, but more so getting the buy in, getting the >> the the leadership to be singing from the same himnil as it were. >> So I think part of that is life experience, okay? >> When you have always had to navigate situations where you’re maybe the outsider or appear to be the outsider. So I came into corporate America. I was a hair stylist first. >> So you know there’s every hour or so there’s a different person with a different story and a different background in your chair >> and you want them to come back to your chair. So you have to find a way to connect. And so for me it was very similar with connecting with people in the locations that I travel to and then being able to kind of build that credibility with leaders when they’re talking about a location and I say, “Oh yeah, when I was there I met so and so and had lunch at this place.” And they’re like, “You went to that place?” “Yeah, I did.” Because that place is part of my responsibility, you know. And so I think kind of that that approach in itself uh garnered a lot of respect because I didn’t just sit in my little location and >> tell people what to do and you know it took two planes sometimes and locations with one flight in one flight out you know um and so I think that really helped people to see that like my heart was in the work and I didn’t have this very personal agenda to do all these horrible things that I’m a person who I would like to continue to provide a living for my family and I’d like to make sure that you’re able to do the same thing. >> That’s sound advice. I I’m trying to think how can we make you know our our friends in marketing feel the same way about our employer brand work sometimes that we love marketing. >> I I was lucky to I think stumble across employer brand because it mirrored creativity that business sense all those wonderful things that didn’t really have a place in any other world in corporate. So when I landed, I was like, “Oh, I can look at graphics and interview people. I could do all these creative things for my hair stylist world and do it on a regular Monday through Friday basis.” >> That’s right. >> So >> that’s fantastic. So let’s let’s talk a little bit about um some of the opportunities that you see today. Right. So you’ve got um I think somewhat of a settling of the marketplace around DE and I >> feels like it, >> right? It’s like people have either decided they’re going to roll it back or they’re they’re 10 toes down. >> You’re in a situation where you’re 10 toes down. Awesome. >> What next for you? Right. Is it is it expansion? Is it um how do how do you evolve with uh you know de andi being that we’re in its fourth evolution right from affirmative action in the 60s to diversity to diversity and inclusion to now de and I >> what is that next thing that you see coming >> so that’s twofold for me there is the employee perception that the name of the game is just preserve it is make sure we lose anything, make sure they don’t take anything away, >> which is real. It’s valid. >> Sure. >> Um, but the other side of me thinks that adversity is always the best time to like dig in and get ahead. >> Yeah. >> Um, so there there’s two things. There’s kind of getting that employee base to be a little less timid. >> Um, and dig into things. Um and then there’s like even when I think about things so when I think about flexible work I think about inclusion >> okay >> and I see that a lot of companies are like four days in the office 4 days you know everybody come into the office 5 days 10 days and just everybody in the office and all the time sleep here and >> there are some companies >> I say well why not strategically position yourself if everyone’s doing that why wouldn’t you do something friends. Why wouldn’t you set yourself apart as an employer and say, “Okay, the company across the street says for we say too, >> you know, because we know that employees enjoy walking their dogs and going to the gym and whatever people need to do.” >> And so I look at it like dig in. >> But that seems like that’s a bold move for a lot of organizations that aren’t interested in being >> counter into Sure. So, so where is that organizational courage? Why isn’t it there? What’s needed? >> So, I’ve asked myself, well, when I look at other areas of business where people organizations are like, we want to lead, we want to be innovative, we want to break the mold, but DEI is like, >> let’s just do this steadily. >> Yeah. We’ll just keep our toes in the pool, right? And so obviously it’s there’s a lot of emotion, historical context, a lot that uh drives how we lead it, but also it’s who’s leading. >> That is important as well. For sure. >> Because if how I work and and and the culture that I experience is comfortable and I’m not tapping into how you work and what culture you’re experiencing, everything’s fine. >> Yes. And that’s a deeper conversation, right? Because now we’re getting into who who is sitting in the seat of power. >> Sure. >> Right. And and I think you have to navigate if you have a visionary leader versus was this person brought in to right size. Right. If they’re not here to make waves, they’re here to stabilize, then you can’t come through with a visionary idea. >> Absolutely. >> That’s not their that’s not their ministry. Um but I also think we start to get into conversations about power and status and privilege and all those other things which have been key themes in >> de and I >> you know when we look at history there’s really no frame of reference for anybody who’s in a power powerful privileged highly status position giving those things up literally never happened >> so the EI becomes sort of an anomaly right where we’re asking the most powerful privileged and highly status people in an organization to seed some of that >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Uh so that others might have, right? And I don’t know that we’ve seen that happen >> yet. I don’t know if it’s even reasonable to expect it. However, what I think where where we have a lot of opportunity is for people to center the humanity within the organization, which is hard >> when you have to make business decisions that impact real people’s lives >> because it’s what the business needs, right? Or what the shareholders require. >> Absolutely. So talk to me a little bit about that because you sit in these rooms, you’re you’re hearing how decisions are getting made, >> protect the viability of the business, the growth, expansion, stability, so forth. >> How do you become that voice in the room that says remember the human being? >> Sure. And it’s through it’s that EB. It’s the storytelling. >> It’s the storytelling. Nobody can resist a good storyelling. We’re wired to like lean into a good story. >> Absolutely. And take that away with you. And so in the storytelling, one of the things that I always that I’ve found more lately is people say, you know, I was talking to my daughter who’s entering the workforce >> and she says some similar things >> or my son’s been at this company for 2 years and he’s saying this thing. >> Yeah. And so it’s like, you know, strategically telling that story where I know that you have a connection point and no, it doesn’t make you turn the business upside down, but it makes you consider what is this like when your son or daughter walks through the door and has to have this work experience. >> That’s so good. >> And then you go to dinner. >> That’s so good. >> You know, so it’s that EV, I am telling you, >> personalization. >> Absolutely. >> Human stories that they can connect and relate to. It’s it’s such a transferable skill. um in any aspect of business to be a good story. Absolutely. To be able to relate to the audience and then when you have that that impact in the moment, have you seen that shape or change a decision that maybe they were going to make or >> I have and I’ll tell you it’s so it’s that it’s also that credibility. So if you ask me for something at 2:00, you get it at 10:00. It’s also, you know, the overd deliver that we’ve been socialized to do. >> Um, it is that traveling, that connecting with people who other people maybe in the organization have had a hard time building a relationship with or, you know, they think this person’s hard to work with or so that’s given me a lot of social capital in the organization to be in the meetings and say, >> well, here’s what I think actually. Yeah. And then, you know, sometimes having some stats help. Sometimes people don’t care about the stats. They connect to the story. >> Sure. >> Like, remember I said that we were 35% more. They’re like, “No, but remember the girl that Okay.” >> So, it, you know, it depends on the audience. So, I think >> I’ve been with this organization a little over two and a half years. So, >> yeah, >> I’ve not a ton of skin in the game as far as people in the industry. This our industry is you come here, you stay here, you die here. So two and a half years is not a ton. >> No. >> But being able to when I came we had two ERGs. We have seven. >> Wow. >> So we have people from all different locations, global connections, hourly workers, which was like this conundrum. How do we engage our hourly workforce >> because we can’t make them feel like family, >> right? >> Legally. And so, so being able to solve some of their problems that they have been just puzzled by for years quickly >> has given me the right to in a meeting tell this story and connected to humanity. >> So credibility, consistency. >> Let’s talk about So this is a formula for trust. Trust equals credibility plus consistency >> uh plus intimacy >> divided by self-perception. >> So you’ve got credibility and consistency here that how are you spending time with these leaders so that they get to know you in ways that they can let their guard down, be honest and be vulnerable and then be more receptive to what you have as a perspective in your work. So, I’m always deciding how much of my story you get to know >> because you haven’t earned the right to my story. Um, >> but I would like to connect with you as a human being and as a colleague that I’m going to be working with, you know, potentially for years. Um, so my story is so like vast and there’s 800 versions of it >> that I try to share something that’s authentic. For example, I was speaking to one leader >> and they were sharing something about >> uh what keeps them up at night. >> Yeah. with employee resource groups and how they were concerned that maybe we’re sending a message of division. >> And so I shared what kept me up at night. >> Okay. >> And I well nothing keeps me up at night. >> You sleep quite well. >> I sleep very well. Um but what concerns me, >> okay, >> is that when we talk about inclusion, it means removing all adversity from the work experience. And >> when you and I know and people that have been in the workforce know that that’s how you like have gained this character and that’s how you know having a bad manager is one of the best experiences that you can have. >> It teaches you what not to do when you become >> absolutely sure and having you know a lazy co-orker is how you get to shine and all these different things. So the perception is that inclusion means I’ll never have a problem at work. And I was like I I’m really that keep that concerns me because I want us to tell that story in a more effective way. My job is not to make sure that >> you never miss the bus and then you come into the meeting five minutes late. That’s not what inclusion is. You know like sometimes that’s going to happen and you’re going to have to, you know, make up for that maybe for months because you were late to one meeting. My job is not to take away those consequences. >> So, I share things um about myself and I really try to meet people where they are. So, I’m not coming down as, oh, there goes the diversity and inclusion girl. Don’t say anything around her. And because I’ve had people at coffee machines, I mean, stuttering trying to not say the wrong. I’m like, I’m just here to get my coffee. >> Coffee. >> You’re good. >> Everybody carry on. And so, um, so I think for me, like those are really important things, being able to connect and, um, it depends on who the person is. I’ve had people tell me parts of themselves that >> when other people talk about them in the organization, I never hear that same story repeated. So, I don’t know if they’re telling me something that they haven’t told other co other co-workers. >> Um, but I would never repeat it. And so I think for me it’s kind of like I’m always feeling out sensing like what parts of me am I going to share? But I almost always have an authentic story that we can connect with. >> So that begs the qu and thank you for that. That begs the question, can you really bring your whole self to work? Should you >> Something that I tell people, especially young professionals, is there’s a consequence to everything. Mhm. >> And so bringing your whole self to work is catchy and cute, >> but it is not without consequence. And I think for me, I’ve always brought my whole self to work. And so only a very specific type of manager is going to work with me. >> Um, in this role in my interview, I remember uh the person that interviewed me saying when we got off the call, I was like, “Absolutely not. this person is like terrifying. We’re not ready for that. >> Wow. >> And then they thought about it and said, >> “But we need to be getting ready for that.” >> And so, this is the type of person that is going to challenge us to get there. M >> so I’ve had interviews and roles where I felt like I was too big for the role or the manager was intimidated or um I just need you to clock in do the thing and clock out and why do you look so fancy and why is your hair so big and your earrings and all these things and so it’s not and so that made me less promotable that made me not be seen as a leader >> um you know that whole executive presence and what that is out. >> Um, so it’s not without consequence, but for me, I wasn’t willing to sell that for a job. >> So, >> and that that is a challenge for a lot of folks, right? Especially if you come from marginalized backgrounds, and I’ll say specifically in the black community, we were, >> as far as we could remember, you’re going to go to school, you’re going to get a job, you’re gonna, >> you know, get the you’re going to get the degree, get a good job, work 30 years, retire, and die. Uh but nobody tells you when to say no to a role that’s for sure >> that’s not right for you or a culture that’s not uh beneficial to your well-being. >> Sure. >> Um and yeah, you do have to figure those things out. I think but I don’t know that and something you said I don’t think that inclusion is removing all adversity. I think that is such a gem because >> there is no perfect. There’s no utopia. There’s always going to be mess as long as there’s human beings. Absolutely. Absolutely. And different human beings with different backgrounds and experiences trying to achieve their own agendas while trying to achieve an organizational agenda. >> Absolutely. So, so I don’t think it’s realistic expectation, but what could tangible or practical inclusion look like that honors that space of messiness but still being a space where you’re seen, valued, heard? I think for me a tangible thing is an environment where people can say this is not an inclusive experience >> and the leader can say I didn’t realize that. How do we make this experience more inclusive for you? >> Because sometimes it’s something as small as there was no vegetarian option at the lunch. >> Yeah. And sometimes it’s something as you know complex as I don’t see myself in the seauite but we just assume that it means one thing. >> It means oh you’re black and you don’t see another black person so it’s not inclusive. Oh there’s no and so there’s there’s layers to it but we don’t pause to ask the question or we don’t empower people to be able to say I don’t like this >> and then we say either how can we fix it or we’re not willing to fix it. >> Right? So you have to adjust accordingly. >> Right. But then you’ll put an engagement survey out, right? And the engagement survey comes back, we’re doing great. >> Right. Exactly. Exactly. Because people aren’t empowered to say, right? >> Because they know that the consequences, you’re not going to promote me, you’re going to, you know, make my life hell or all these things. And >> we don’t talk about that enough. We don’t talk about how that lack of psychological safety bumps up to middle management. Hm. Middle management is the one who always gets left out of the conversation. Front line and seauite. But middle management shapes the daily experience. >> Absolutely. >> In the front line. >> Absolutely. >> And I think even I’ll just use employer branding as an example. When we do an employer brand build, we have to focus on >> how do we get middle management to champion this because that’s going to be the culture >> absolutely >> is expressed through for a candidate. >> They can determine right. People don’t leave great companies, they leave shitty managers. >> Absolutely. >> And if you don’t have a manager that’s living the culture, then yes, your brand work is out the door. >> Absolutely. >> Out the door. Oh my gosh. So, there’s so many places we could go. Um, I do want to I do want to ask, is there something that not keeps you up at night, but wakes you up at night? >> There is. Um, gosh, >> it’s unfiltered, folks. All right. Poorly written policies. >> Say more. >> So, I will look at a policy and I’m like, first of all, either they antiquated >> or they just don’t serve the people or the organization. >> It’s neither effective. >> Yes. And it’s like you have this line that you drawn in the sand which is really a barrier >> and you don’t have people in your organization that are going to challenge it because we don’t have the bandwidth to be redoing policies and this and it’s like but no we have to >> and so for me I I feel like a policy is a way to say okay John you have a great manager I have a bad manager. Mhm. >> I can say as Batman with the person with the VA manager, well, your policy says that I am allowed to do this. >> And you may have had a manager that’s like, “Oh, it’s up to your discretion.” And my manager is like, “There is no discretion. This is the way it is.” >> And so these kind of vague and I understand that we put these things in place with the idea of protecting the organization just in case. >> Sure. But those are the things that I really like when I think of barrier that’s what feels like a barrier to me is really poorly either written or executed policies. >> Well, I think that’s a that is a question I think a lot of times of is the policy to cover the ass or is it to really improve the process? >> And I and that’s where I feel like >> there has to be a balance. I’m sure. >> Of course, because you know the organization that I work for, I would like for it to exist for another hundred years. I’m not saying that it, you know, but what I’m saying is we have brilliant minds in these legal spaces and the minds coming in. Oh my gosh. Like why can’t we land on something that serves both? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good question. I’d love to hear the comments uh see in the comments what your thoughts are on policy. This is good. This is good. Well, look, I we’re getting close to time. Um, all of our all of our guests uh are encouraged to uh answer a question that was left by a former guest. >> Oh, wonderful. >> So, your your question is uh how are you using AI in the work that you do? Uh how is it changing your work? And indei, this is >> I’m so interested to hear this. >> So, this is great. So, in our organization, we use co-pilot. Um, IP is our most valuable like asset. >> And so we’re not working outside of our walls. >> Okay. >> Um, but for me, because I do the EB person in me telling the story, I will quickly co-pilot rewrite. Let me see the other options. >> Let me see how I could better say this. Let me see. Um, so for me, sometimes as I’m writing, when I’m getting comfortable, that Caribbean site kind of comes in and then the sentence is like this and I’m like, It says what I want it to say, but the person on the other end is going to be like what? Um, so I use it for things like that. I had a question asked to me like we need some more guidance and this accountability group around uh what topics we should be discussion discussing. >> Okay. >> So I just went to chat GPC on my phone external to our walls and said what should we be talking about in a women’s empowerment session? I said 12 ideas, meaning give it to me for the year, so no one ever asked me this question again. >> Um, and so they spit out 12 things. They were fantastic. Financial literacy, um, talking about um, what’s that phrase? Oh, imposttor syndrome. >> Just some other things that really show up in the way that women work. And so I sent those over. People thought they were fantastic. I’m like, yeah, they were chat GPT. >> So time saving primarily. That’s how I use it. >> Mhm. >> Is that so? And that tool um becomes very much a part of I think practitioners days uh as a as a it’s a it’s a no-brainer, right? It’s part of your daily >> uh just regiment routine checking on how to say this better, consolidating, making things more concise. Is there another tool that you’ve uh found from an AI perspective outside of work maybe that’s enhanced things that you do or is pretty much chat >> I think so it’s pretty much chat GPT and then because I sit in HR uh for DNI like those performance goals making them smart that everybody loves to do like that’s like say what you got to say and then make it smart and then your job’s done right absolutely um but so no outside of those two tools no >> awesome Well, now you get to leave a question for the next guest. >> Nice. Nice. I would say I would ask the question, how how and who have you improved the space that you currently work in for? >> Oh. Oh, wow. A person a question of personal impact. >> Yes. Because what are we doing if we’re not making it better for the person that’s coming behind us? >> Oh, that’s such a rich question. That’s such a rich question. Ti, I really appreciate you impromptu because we have a very special guest in addition to this very special guest. I don’t know if she’s if she’s down, but I’d like to get the future of employer brand over here on camera for just a moment because folks, this is a treat. you’re we’re not only here with somebody who’s who’s navigated the trenches of the employer brand function and made it to DE and high now navigating those but now her daughter is in employer branding as well. So Micah if you don’t mind coming over and saying hi to the people and we can talk a little bit about what you do now. She’s putting on lipstick right now and camera ready. I love it. I love it. Michael, welcome to Employer Branding Unil. Just come on in. Uh here we can get this maybe over here. Here I got you. >> It all goes down on set, folks. >> Thank you. >> Here we go. >> Let’s see. We can sort of pause for a second. Shots’s good. All right. So, Michael, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Yes. I know you weren’t planning on being on camera today. However, she’s ready. Uh so, you’re in employer brand. Tell me, how did mom shape your decision to get into this space? Okay. So, it’s funny because I found myself ending up in employer brand as well. So, I first started, well, my degree is in communications. >> Okay. >> When I first started working, I was on a community and culture team >> and I worked in um an HR team just doing more project focused things. >> Okay. >> And then um somebody that I worked for, they said, “Hey, I think you’d be really good for this role. These are your strengths.” and my strength were the things that she told me were my strengths like as a kid. So, um, >> wow. >> I did my internship there and then I went full-time and I ended up really liking it and being good at it and that’s where I ended up at. So, it’s kind of like she never told me like you should take on employer brand or anything like that, but >> yeah, >> I think I always had an interest in writing and reading as a kid. >> Yeah. >> And I always just cared about like we have to work. That’s just what’s happening in life. And so I think that we should listen to people and we should make it as best as we can. >> So what what would you say uh that your experience has been in employer brand uh thus far in terms of being able to make an impact on how people view the organization that you work for? >> That’s a really good question. I would say making an impact is as in terms of the reputation of like the the company when a lot of the work that I did was glass door focused and it was just me answering glass door reviews >> and we would get thousands I mean I think at one point we were at 200,000 plus maybe even a million in that range of impressions a month. >> Oh wow. >> A lot of people were viewing our work. So, >> as you can imagine, stakeholders, our CEO, our investors, they’re looking at my work cuz they’re like, “We don’t want to give money to people are not going to work there anymore.” >> Good point. >> So, I would say my work, I can’t put it in one word, but I I definitely felt like it was always important and putting efforts into it and especially like the things that I would have to reply to because, you know, it can get crazy on glass door. >> Um, you know, just managing that um definitely had like a big impact. But yeah, I don’t have one word for it, I think. Yeah. >> No, that’s that’s good. That’s good. So, okay, last question. I’ll get you off the hot seat. >> Um, what would you tell your future self >> who might be considering getting into employer brand that they need to know before they do? >> You need tough skin. >> You need thick skin. Excuse me. need thick skin >> because some of those reviews and some of the feedback that you get will feel like a part of you, >> especially if you’re deeply committed to your work, >> these reviews are not about you. These people don’t know you. >> Right? Don’t take it personally. >> And even the people that do know you, this is for the company. So when they’re saying you need to rewrite this, this is not that you’re not capable. This is that people are going to see this and we want to put our best foot forward. I would also say don’t be surprised like be don’t be so like stuck on having one route cuz you don’t know where you’ll end up. I communications is one of those majors where you have to create your route. Like it’s not like you go to nursing school and I’m going to be a nurse. >> You’re going to be a nurse. Yeah. >> Um so I would say like try the different things. I did journalism for a little bit. >> I’ve done obviously like retail things like that. Okay. Um, but just don’t put yourself in a box and try to try different things and if you don’t like it, that’s okay. Develop something else because you don’t know. >> It’s great advice for the future employer branders. >> Well, look, thank you both so much for being here. I can’t thank you enough and what a welcome treat. I’m looking at present and future. >> Um, so we’d love to have you back obviously and uh anytime you’re in town, >> sure, >> stop by the vision lab.