Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.7 – Amit Parmar

I don’t like the word employer branding to be honest. All right, >> talk about it. What’s up? Yes, say more >> cuz employer branding itself and I know it’s on our website. I’m we’ll change it at some point, right? I do think it is about the experience, right? Like what experience are you providing to your employees as well as to candidates as well as alumni and I I do believe the employer branding function or whoever is doing that role today, we will evolve to experience and then use the AI components. So the time that’s freed up from all these other activities that that that are involved in employee branding and recruitment marketing today that AI will replace that time should be dedicated to actually driving experience. [Music] All right, folks. We are back with another episode of Employer Branding Unfiltered. I’m your host, John Graham, and I have an exciting an exciting guest. Today’s guest is a name you need to know uh in this space. uh Amit Parmar who is the co-founder and CEO of Clickify has over 16 years in the HR leadership space across giants like I don’t know IBM Deote uh Unicus some small startups you may have heard of they’re going to do great but either way emit has been at the forefront of global talent transformation from building analytics systems before it was trendy to leading worldwide teams across attraction engagement learning and growth he’s a published thought leader with Forbes, a me a member of Sherm, uh a product of insec and a proud mentor to the next generation of high potential leaders. Today I’m excited to talk to Amit and and unpack a host of things including the future of talent attraction uh especially in a hyper digital world. Uh, I also want to dig it. We’re going to dig into how storytelling is evolving in the employer branding space. And we’ll talk about some big bold bets that leaders in the talent space need to make now if they want to stay relevant tomorrow. Y’all put your hands together. Give me a good digital welcome for my guy Amit. Emit, welcome. >> Well, thank you, John. Wow, that was that was a phenomenal intro. I’ve I don’t think I’ve ever had that before. So, thank you. I appreciate that. >> Listen, you you need more of that, man. I should have theme music for you, but you know, work with what we got, right? >> I appreciate you having me on today, John. Excited for the conversation. >> The pleasure is ours, man. Look, so let’s jump into it. So, in this moment, I always ask, how are you and who are you in this moment? >> In this moment, well, it is Friday, so it’s it’s been an amazing week and I’m looking forward to some moments, right? >> Give it up for Fridays. We love those >> this moment. Yeah, I am I am just grateful grateful for um my team, our clients, and and really just excited to spend some quality time with my family over the weekend. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Look, I know uh family is super important to many of us, for you as well, and I love that you take the time, right? Uh as a busy founder, you’re hustling, you’re trying to, you know, you’re doing all these things. So we’ll we’ll get into how you take time for you and create that space. Um you told me how you are in this moment. Who are you in this moment? >> Gosh, in this moment um I am I’m just really living the dream as it relates to innovation really. Right. And uh you know in this moment like what what really has been driving me and my teams is is how do you push the envelope especially and we’re going to talk about this a little bit right like with with everything around us what what the world is experiencing right now in terms of geopolitical uh environment uh as well as the technological environment and of course you know uh we don’t operate in a vacuum so just really starting to look at what the next you know 6 months to 3 years will look like for for us, right? So, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And listen, we we I often have to remind myself it’s only been 6 months. Like, it’s only been 6 months in 2025 for whatever that means to all of you listening, you know what I mean? But, um, but I want to I want to back up a little bit. So for people who don’t know, you know, what Clickify is, give us a give us a a highlevel uh elevator pitch, if you will, so that they understand exactly uh how powerful what you’ve created is. >> Well, thank you, John. Um you know in in a nutshell we help enterprises and people tell amazing stories uh in a scalable way uh where you can actually connect with people at a deeper level than just you know what we see we live in such a transactional society today uh and I do believe with AI uh storytelling is ever going to be more important as it relates to connecting at a deeper level with people and that’s at the core of of what Clickify is. Um and the how we do it is is the platform, right? But um but that’s why we built Clickify. >> Yeah. So I think uh and look, I’m I’m completely neutral. There’s plenty of tech tools out there for this work, right? Um but I also would love you, we have many a conversation just outside of the work world and the business world. um just on a human level. But I think we both have very interesting takes on the space that we’re in. And with that stated, I know you know you have your pulse on uh the world of employer brand, the world of recruitment marketing. I I want to ask, what are you seeing out there that companies are still getting wrong about employer branding in in in the year of our Lord 2025? >> Well, you know, I I I wouldn’t say they’re getting it wrong. I just think uh there’s an opportunity to do it better. >> Oh man, this is unfiltered, sir. This is unfiltered. That was great. He’s got an HR background, folks. He’s got an HR background. Come on now. Not everybody’s not everybody’s crushing it. We’ll leave the names nameless, but I but I really want you to take because that will help them get better, right? So, let’s Yeah. Let’s give them the gift. >> Yeah. I think I think employer branding often gets confused with like oh I need to I need to have a good employer brand so I can attract talent or hey I’ve got a hiring need in a particular pocket in an organization so now I need to invest in employer branding and often it’s too late right uh when you when you think about employer branding uh it’s two sides retention and attraction are two sides of the coin right and often what we find is um employer branding in particular gets funded mainly because the company is growing or they’re they’ve got a hiring need somewhere. Uh and I’m going to set aside, you know, some budget somewhere just because I have a peak in in my hiring season. But what employer branding really should be also focused on is how do you engage with the storytelling with your internal audience, who you are as an organization. U there’s a communication play there as well, right? As it relates to how how are your leaders communicating with your organization, with the employees, how are the employees able to communicate back upwards um in in the organization? And all of that generally I believe tends to get left aside. And branding to me is always inside out. In fact, I I wrote a a Forbes article on that you had mentioned earlier, John. Uh really talking about the employee experience inside out is what should shape your employer brand externally as well. >> My gosh, preach preach. I couldn’t agree more. And and I I will say the jewel in that is inside out, right? And and I think to your point a lot of times by the time employer brand gets to the conversation it’s we need to bring people in but we haven’t even really done that selfwork yet right this is very much like a like a therapy requirement like who who am I that would be attractive to somebody else right uh to a candidate and I think far too often there’s that part gets skipped and we just go straight to the externalization >> absolutely you know if I may add to that, John. >> Of course, >> you know, often I see I see companies and leaders, senior leaders in companies say, “Oh, we need to hire talent from Google.” And then so what are Google’s practices? Can we try to replicate those practices? Right. And so now you have, you know, ping pong tables in in >> Right. >> Sure. >> But you look at the HR policies, they’re still like, you know, they were created in the 1940s, right? And so there’s this huge mismatch of what we think we need to be and what you really are, right? >> He’s touching on it. So to that point, right? Because nobody wants to put forth the version of who they are, especially if it doesn’t align with what they think is sexy and attractive to candidates in the talent market. So, how do you now square that circle of saying we know we’re not Google or whomever, right? Um, but who we are is actually pretty cool. It’s just people don’t know about it. So, how do you balance that uh from your perspective in terms of telling the stories that would be appealing but not overstretching it or overselling a false narrative? >> Yeah, you know, I’m a huge I’m a data geek, John. Um and so for me it is all about the data right there’s there’s so many signals that you your organization if you’re using workday or any of these HR systems today uh there’s so many signals that you can capture from all this data that your your the people data that you have engagement surveys pulse results exit surveys you know how many how many lawsuits are being filed um you know with with your with with your company or against your company. >> All all of that data sits inside an organization today. So when you start to look at that, you you start to get pockets in certain regions, in certain business units or departments and and you hone in on where where you actually have the best stories, right? How where people are being treated the best and and are and are most productive, right? And and when you identify those pockets, that’s when you start to get to who you really are. And then you’ll have pockets that are not, you know, you’ve got teams that are constantly struggling to meet their goals, right? You’ve got departments that are just underperforming. And then you learn from that data as well. And you say, “Okay, what what is this one department or this business unit doing well? And what’s the other business?” And then you you start to see and and actually compile, frankly, your value proposition that way, right? Uh and that feeds into like hey the these are thing these are areas where we need to improve and be honest with with candidates as well as your employees because they know it right they know it already. So, so the to the extent you uh as leadership actually come out and say okay these are the areas and a lot of leaders do this in a in a very good way but to your point John this is where I do believe there’s opportunity to the extent you can say hey this is who we are this is what we aspire to be and these are the areas we need to focus on right in order to get there and and if you’re just transparent and honest with people I do believe that goes a long Okay. >> Honest and transparent. Those are those are bars. Um but yet we we don’t see a lot of that. >> Yes. And and I have my point of view. I have a point. >> I know you do. I want to hear it. Why Why are we not seeing the honesty and transparency when all of the data showcases that’s what people actually respond well to? Yeah, I think you know I’m going to go back to history a little bit, John. So, you know, HR as a function really started forming in the industrial age, right? Um, and when you think about the function of HR back then was really about making sure that, you know, you had safety protocols for for uh employees. Back then, they call them workers, right? Um and and and that’s the compliance-driven mindset that the HR function was born out of, right? You had OSHA regulations in the US at least and then of course more stringent regulations in Germany and so on. But if you if you really start to look at how was the HR function born that is how it was born. So it was kind of in the DNA, right? And and it took a while. It’s it’s still taken a while to mature that function to really actually balance between what the management wants and what the employee needs are. All right. And I I’m afraid to say that I do think HR functions uh of late uh people don’t view it as as a proponent for them. They view it as a proponent to management. Right? And what ends up with the HR function then is you’re viewed as management versus like a true balancing equation uh in in the equation of of the uh of employers versus or employers and the and and the employer. Right. >> Right. So, >> uh, you know, this goes deep in the sense that you, if you’re a chief people officer, a chief talent leader, you need to step up and and really start to understand the needs of the people, right? And I know people are stretched, right? Like I I when I say this, you know, whoever is listening this, they’re going to be like, well, I have my headcount just by 5%. Like, how am I supposed to do this? I hear you. It is it is a challenging world out there, right? Um but there are ways with technology where you can start to scale and and really get to know your people. Uh there’s so much data available now, right? Uh it wasn’t in in the 1940s. And so for me it is about the the you know really thinking about what is the role of the HR function inside your company and are you viewed as you know closer to management versus closer to people because it is a fine balance because you don’t want to alienate management either right >> so you’ve got you’ve got to figure that out uh and and I think when you when you reach that balance is where the experiences for of your employees as well as management uh will will resonate and and be more in sync. Right. >> No, beautifully stated and and I think there’s a couple points in there I want to touch on. So, as you’re talking, I’m thinking like even the the the titles or the naming of the functions within HR and I think about uh shouts out to all the business partners, but where are the HR people partners, right? Like it it’s in the titling. So, if we’re like, “No, no, no. We’re your friend. We’re we’re we’re here for you.” who was like no it’s literally business partner in in the title right but you have chief people officers or you have right chief talent officer so I think there’s we we need to get some alignment on like naming conventions and also who is the the intended beneficiary of the work we’re doing and ultimately yes the business will benefit but to your point we’re still dealing with uh very archaically constructed um processes functions right? Value propositions to the business that I don’t think have evolved. Either way, my my personal thoughts aside, because I know the work that they do is necessary work and it’s very it’s still very much compliance driven and and steeped in risk mitigation and you know making sure that laws are filed followed which we need. Um there’s some evolution there I think still and and and you know they’re getting there. So it’s not you know I think the HR function I mean the the best chief people officers I’ve I’ve seen are are highly attuned to to the culture in their organization and these are large corporations right >> um they use data to their advantage to to really stay up to speed with with what’s happening not only in the business but what’s also happening with their culture right and culture is super hard to measure as you know um but there are there are you know factors that you can take into consideration that that get at >> performance versus potential and behaviors and and such, right? So, >> rewarding and so on. >> Um, >> in some ways it is it is a it’s a hard battle for chief people officers because they’re being especially with AI now they’re being asked by CEOs to, you know, slash their budgets and and it’s not just the CHRO, it’s all of the staff functions, right? It’s it’s the CIO, it’s the CMO. Um and and I think we just have to, you know, make sure that in the in the interest of of driving societal shift as it relates to the employer and the employee relationship in the age of AI, uh we’re at the crossroads of just making sure that whatever policies, procedures that are being set forth and the anxiety that’s being created by AI is is really well understood by leaders in terms of communicating these changes and then what mean for for people’s jobs and their and their growth and and frankly their pay. Right. >> 100%. And and we’re going to dig into AI in just a bit, but you mentioned, you know, the the the chief people, talent, CHRO’s needing to be very in tune with their culture. Uh and they are right by and large. I I see the same thing that they’re very they’re very in tune. And what I’ll say is when we go through uh EVP exercises um and you know we’ve done the research we’re bringing it back to the leadership team a lot of times still even today even the most uh avantgard chief people officers I always get that huh that that’s that’s how they experience this and or or gosh and we have a program in place that’s addressing that very thing but then you start to realize that it’s a communication challenge right? It hasn’t been socialized well or it sort of stopped or died on the vine in the middle uh layer of of management. What data points are you seeing that uh the leaders that you work with are leveraging to start to drive cultural shifts? >> Oo, great question. Um so, you know, when you when you think about internal and external data points, right? Um there are all these internal signals that of course you know you’ve got engagement surveys which are fine but you know you know what happens the moment you ask somebody for like input >> they’re fine even though it doesn’t matter how many times you say it’s anonymous >> right >> uh >> why do we start with a lie like stop that >> um so here here is kind of you know the way uh really solid HR uh partners right people partners uh if they’re aligned to a department and if you have let’s say 10% attrition in an organization so in any given you know month just take a random sample of people exiting your organization and literally just pick up the phone and and just say hey you know hey I’m I’m I’m the HR person you know I’m sorry sorry to hear that you’re leaving us I’m sure there you know different circumstances but I would just love to have a candid dialogue with you over lunch if if you know you’re ical, right? If not, uh, over a phone call, but really start to to understand your exit survey data. So, it’s not just surveying exit like it’s not exit surveys formal formally as as defined, but really start to understand why are people leaving you that way, right? Now, it’s not it’s easier said than done because, you know, people don’t want to talk to HR, right? Like the moment you say you’re HR, it’s like the guard goes up, right? So you’ve got to build enough credibility with with the departments that you’re supporting to to get to that level of data and and insight. Then of course you have your the standard you know the survey data where I think there’s a lot of intel is chatter that’s happening in the digital platforms. Um more and more Reddit is becoming a top channel for people. Uh I follow several companies on it. Um, and some of the stuff you hear, uh, now it’s positive and and, you know, constructive, right? Um, >> so, you know, >> yeah, that’s a word for it. >> It’s not, by the way, you hear this all the time. It’s like, oh, why focus on Reddit or Glass Door comparably? People are just bitching on it anyway, right? >> Yeah. >> It’s exactly why you should listen to those channels. Well, that’s another it’s another data point, right? It’s one additional data point for you to to just be be on the lookout for any any trends, right? Because trend is your friend, right? And and once you start to see and it’s not you don’t go by somebody just, you know, complaining about, you know, my bathroom wasn’t clean in the office or whatever. You got to look at the total picture. And that’s big data. And that’s where I think AI has such a huge potential. uh because you know AI can now turn millions of data points within hours versus weeks right that it used to. So the computational power has just exponentially increased. Uh but what I see real solid HR people do is just really look at just be constantly listening out there for these cues and then marry that up with internal data. So you have attrition data, you have resignation data, uh you’ve got data on skills now, right? What kind of skills am I losing? Um are there particular managers who might need help like people development initiatives right how do you help these leaders because we all know the saying John right like people don’t leave companies they leave managers right now that’s not always the case uh but generally somebody must have done some study out there right um and that kind of stuck but there there are you know there are a lot of trends and there are a lot of signals that are available u at a very reasonable cost now because of AI that I I think there’s so much potential. I mean this is an exciting time actually to be in the HR function and the talent function uh because the amount of intel that you can gather and people are the most complicated you know uh piece of the puzzle right um I used to my mentor years ago former chief people officer I used to work with um you know Dave Loer I Dave if you listen to this shout out to you you know he would he would say uh you know it’s actually easier to be a CFO than it is to be a chief people officer. Right. >> Numbers are less complicated. >> That’s right. That’s right. >> Yeah. >> Very black and white. Generally speaking, now I’m I’m overly simplifying the the job of a CFO. >> Yes. >> Are super complicated, >> right? You might be super happy as an employee yesterday and today it’s a whole different ballgame. So the actual time that you do surveys or even pulse surveys, you’re actually miss you’re only getting like a snapshot in time, you’re you’re not getting how people are actually feeling on that particular day, right? But with with all this data and the availability of um and frankly the affordability of data and insight, I think it’s a huge opportunity for HR leaders who uh who have affinity for data, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. it. So, sticking to the data part of it, um, and AI, I know, you know, storytelling is hugely important, right? And there’s a lot of content out there these days. I think way more content than in human history. And so with all of the, you know, big employers, medium-size or midsize taking that approach of we’ve got to tell our stories. We’ve got to tell our stories. And we’re flooding the market with stories. How do we then or how do they I should say uh differentiate in a sea of storytelling? how you know competing for attention in the attention economy especially in the talent uh talent attention economy how are you seeing differentiation of storytelling um especially since you are you’re in the content business too >> yeah absolutely John great question so >> uh I’m going to I’m harping on this data thing but it is this is it’s all about the insights and the data so um you know we the way we enable our clients is to actually give them data on what is the sentiment in particular you know areas of their company um outside externally this is all external data right we can ingest their engagement survey data for sure but really doing a competitor analysis right so uh if I’m IBM who’s not a client of clickifies but if I’m IBM uh and I’m losing tar talent to Accenture right uh we have a way now where we can tell IBM like These are these are the things that people are talking about that are positive about working there uh at a global level as well as a country and a job function level. And then we do the same thing for Accenture, right? And then we do a delta and this happens every month by the way. So it’s not like a static view. This is not like a six-month project, right? This is like because of AI, we’re able to turn millions of data points to be able to tell IBM, hey IBM, you’re actually known for innovation much better than Accenture is. And and this is based on people employees actually experiencing your brand versus Accenture’s brand, right? And their processes and their work environment. Um and then you we actually boil it down to those very specific things. And it’s not just based on one person saying, “Oh, I think IBM is more innovative.” This is trend data, right? We’re we’re essentially consolidating millions of data points to actually we taught our large language models to say, “Hey, what is the true differentiator and that that information is gold as it relates to content then, right?” Because now you can say you know what this is what IBM this is what people are saying our employees as well as maybe candidates or even people alumni right who have exited the company um this is what they’re saying and this this is I’m just gave one example but basically you’ll have like five pillars like that that actually differentiate you as an employer versus Accenture and then you actually can create your entire content strategy frankly for the full year right based on those pillars because the chances are those pillars are not going to change a whole lot. Um, you know, you might have tweaks every now and then, but that’s how we >> that’s how we think about differentiating. It’s not about pretty slides or, you know, pretty social media posts. >> It’s about what is what is it that you should be sharing with the audience versus versus just, you know, we we think >> throwing stuff out there. I’m sorry. Please continue. >> Yeah, I was just going to say just super highly data driven. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so there’s also a lot of data out there. Um, how are you cutting through the noise then? Because, you know, leaders get a lot of information thrown at them, right? And I think I’ve often heard it’s not we don’t we don’t need more data, we need better insights, >> right? So, so what insights would you say are you are you seeing sort of make the impact to to to drive strategy now when it comes to branding? >> Yeah. So, um I wish I could name this client, but we don’t have >> Oh, yeah. We don’t have to. We we keep everybody >> do that, but this is a global >> insurance giant. Um >> there you go. >> Uh you know, based in the US and you know, they they’ve been on our platform for gosh, like three years now. Um, and we’re only 5 years old, so they’ve been with us a long time, right? Um, and when you look at all this data that we just basically put into our AI models, and by the way, these are proprietary AI models. Like we’re not just GPT, like we’re not doing that, right? >> These are the box GPT. These are enterprise these are enterprise like level enterprisegrade uh large language models and purely around storytelling because that we you know we don’t want to become like this you know massive HR analytics company that’s not who we are we want to get to storytelling at the core right so for this particular uh company they’ve found that anytime they share content around community service they have the highest engagement and conversion version back in their ATS, right? >> Oof, that’s a powerful data point. That’s a very powerful data point. And and I’ll pause you for a second and then we’re going to jump right back in. But what you just said is groundbreaking engagement, i.e. awareness, uh, uh, took an action, commented, shared, liked, whatever. But then also getting to the ATS and conversion. Folks, I hope you realize how groundbreaking that statement is because there’s always this war in employer brand of should should employer brand be uh responsible for conversion, right, as an awareness and consideration tool versus the recruitment marketing elements of it. And so, if you could back me back us up a little bit, you might have just mentioned you have the holy grail here. >> Yeah, it is. It it it’s you know and we’re doing it without integrating, right? So >> that’s insane. That’s insane. Say more. Say more. So you you’re able to showcase the engagement and the conversion. >> Yeah. So >> wild. >> Yeah. I’m I’m actually I’m going to share the secret for my competitors. Totally out there, right? So um you know there there is this thing called UTM tracking, right? That everybody knows. Um but there is a way to get that UTM tracking back to the applicant in terms of source of hire. All right. So the only set when I say no integration I meant that like the only thing we would need to do is set up clickify as a source ATS >> right >> which by the way takes about I’ve done it in my previous life uh takes about 30 minutes to do >> um to to set up a source code unless of course you’re for whatever reason you’ve got some red tape in in your organization um >> which never happens by the way >> that that source code is uh is is is the holy grail actually and the way you you know the way you can use UTM trackers and and back to the source code is is how you can get the conversion data in your HS right >> love it love it so so speaking about AI which is I know everybody’s favorite topic and heavy on every conference agenda news article coming out while it does serve as a very powerful tool if used properly. What are some ways you’re seeing where it’s not being used properly in in our space? Right? Because I you don’t really hear much about the EB recruitment marketing space and AI’s in in proper use of this tool. What are you seeing there? Yeah, I mean look um you know for employer branding uh and I get this right like your job may entail creating content um be it graphical or or textual or you know text format. I I do think you have to be careful of these what I call open language models which is like open AI right uh be super careful in the sense that you are feeding this system and now you know it’s your information is out in the open so to speak now they have I know openai is an enterprise version of open AI as well but the way it is and I love the innovation around this right like I love people when they try new things but just be careful full of like, hey, I, you know, let’s say I want to create a campaign for hiring a nurse in, you know, New York City. All right, you could go to any of these OpenAI tools now and just type in, you know, hiring a nurse. I’ll upload my brand kit and all of a sudden you’ll get maybe some version of uh of a visual associated with that. Um, totally okay from my standpoint, but the watch out is, you know, you it’s you and like 50 million other people probably doing the same thing, right? And so to your point, John, how do you differentiate? So differentiation is key. Like use AI, but know that, you know, chances are uh other nurse recruiters are doing the same thing, right? So you you want to stand out. That’s the whole goal if you want to drive quality candidates versus just quantity. >> That’s a >> Sorry, that’s a really good point to pause on because I think >> there is a there’s a prevailing uh issue as it were and I think um John Oliver on uh last week tonight called it out, did a piece on it, but essentially uh how Pinterest has now become like 80% AI pictures, right? like you’re going there for inspiration for other people’s creativity and all you’re seeing is AI imagery and this this notion of AI slop and you know these these wildly fake but sometimes in disicernable uh you know content pieces where you it’s creating a sea of noise and ultimately deception. So that’s a really good point about, you know, yes, it’s easy to create visual content. It’s easy to create, you know, the job description and all these things, but now you’re doing the same thing that everybody else is, thus not differentiating. >> Oh, that’s dangerous, man. That’s dangerous. >> It’s dangerous. And and I I think I mean, look, for me, uh, and companies who who really believe in talent, right, and not every company does, right? Um, companies who really believe in talent and and know that if they have good talent that they’re going to win in the marketplace, who truly at the core believe that will be the ones who win out in this in this war of AI or age of AI. Um, because they’re they’ll have the policies in place where they’ll say, “Hey, look, we need to create differentiated content versus now it could be AI assisted content, right? But you need you need to have some guard rails around that and and um we’re fortunate. We work with amazing clients who have very specific guard rails and so do we, right? And so we’re we’re fortunate in that sense that we’re not just like a wild wild west in terms of you know leveraging AI to uh within our platform. Um there is definitely a productivity play there because you know you’ve got an army of one or you know two people supporting the entire employer branding function. Um, and so there’s definitely the productivity play there, but I do think you can leverage AI to give you ideas as a co-pilot potentially, but I wouldn’t use it as like, hey, here’s like a full full-on campaign that AI just generated for me and I’m just going to go out there. Chances are you’re going to waste money and you’re going to drive less quality in in your differentiation, right? >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Not only that, I think >> John to your point, the the deceitfulness of it, the trust factor as well, right? Uh and we all know Edelman’s trust barometer, right? Like I follow it to the tea. And if you look at the trend, remember trend is your friend. When you look at the trend from 1970 onwards, right? So well over, you know, 50 years now, right? Um you’re or 75 or so. Sorry, I’m not that good at counting. I think it’s 55. I think I’m a history major. Don’t ask me. But yeah, go ahead. >> But the trend >> you look at the the uh the tr the level of trust in institutions because there’s a very specific questions that Edelman asks, right? What is your level of trust in institutions? So institutions are governments and businesses. Trust in governments is going like sharply down over the last 55 years. And then trust in business is not too far off of that. All right? And so we as a society have this issue with trust to begin with now over the last seven years and it’s continuously falling. How do you now you plug AI into that it’s just going to exacerbate this trust issue. So I mean you know you know this John like I have my mom my mom right like she’s 72 years old forever on Facebook right? >> Oh my gosh. Yeah. parents on Facebook. >> So, send me all these news news articles, right? Like, hey, I just heard about this, you know, plane falling from the sky, like, you know, um, and when you when you read into it, it’s actually not even real. Right. >> Right. Right. Yeah. There’s segments of the population who can’t tell the difference. >> Right. Right. And so so there was that bit of it and then of course John right like the whole inclusion equity uh element of content and how do you approach I I have a great story around this like we there was a career site way back um we used to use the word mission critical a lot on on our career site and come to find out missionritical just those two words um are actually detracting women from applying All right. Um, >> yep. >> And it’s wasn’t it was just completely unconscious, right? >> Yeah. It’s gendered language they call it. >> So, so this is the other piece with AI which is like I’m not sure if you know before you jump into this um like just be mindful of these pitfalls. >> Mhm. And yeah and these philosophical but but actually have has meaningful impact to how people perceive you as a company and and how people decide to >> absolutely and I also think overwhelmingly we are in a space that is very human- centered right I mean human resources uh so so when you start to incorporate tech that removes the humanity out of it out of that process. That’s where I think it gets dicey. So, I I’m not one of those like uh AI is going to replace us all. Um I think it could if if we’re not careful, right? But I think some things we we have to maintain the human touch, right? And the humanity even in the processes how we of how we use the tool itself. that aside, there’s um also the concept of um you know budget savings and costs, right? We’ve seen tech companies cut uh you know I think uh Salesforce cut upwards of 30% of their engineering department, right? Because can now be outsourced to AI. What gets outsourced or cut in our space that AI then replaces in your perspective? Right? Let’s say we’re future thinking. or 5 10 years from now, what’s no longer done by human beings in the recruitment marketing or employer branding function. >> Oo well specifically in recruitment marketing and employer branding I would say um intelligence right gathering intelligence and research. Um, so you know, some of the things we talked about earlier in the show, so that you don’t need you you don’t need like a researcher anymore to to go out there and like be monitoring what’s happening on glass door, Reddit, right? You don’t need a human to to do that anymore. Um, so there’s that aspect of it. Uh, you know, there there is this world of paid media, right? Um I I do think you know AI will get sophisticated enough where it you know at some point it might be as easy as a prompt you just enter right and all of a sudden you’ve got you know algorithms kicking in uh and you’re but content will be key to that I think right so I don’t want to put content in this AI category uh as long as it’s authentic content u because we are in the human business but the actual programmatic attic the you know the paid media management I do think will over time it will get replaced by AI u I think I already see some of it happening now um and then what will not get replaced is and this is kind of the upskilling is the is the connection like what do you do with all this intel the the initial portion of it right how are you then uh talking to the chief talent officer about everything you’re hearing, right? And then providing providing like action plans, right? That’s a more human centric thing to do, which is, hey, I’m seeing pockets of this particular business unit in, you know, Tennessee, you know, struggling because this is what the data is telling us. Hey, can you and then partnering with the rewards the rewards function or you know across the coes or the centers of excellence to actually say hey there’s something here that we can act on and that that piece of employer see I I don’t frankly I don’t like the word employer branding to be honest right >> talk about it yes say more >> because employer branding itself and I know it’s on our website I’m we’ll change it at some point right but um I I do think it is about the experience right like what experience are you providing to your employees as well as to candidates as well as alumni right and I I do believe the employer branding function or whoever is doing that role today we will evolve to experience and then use the AI components so the time that’s freed up from all these other activities that that that are involved in employer branding and recruitment marketing today that AI will replace that time should be dedicated to actually driving experience and connecting the dots across across the C coes right when I say COE’s centers of excellence right um so rewards you know your your uh total rewards uh department your learning and development department your um you know HR operations department right so however the HR function is is um organized having that experience layer and you’re starting to see this John right uh there are chief experience officers now. Um, and I do think that is the future of HR and and and frankly employer branding and and recruitment marketing professionals. >> We got air quotes over branding. I love it. I love it. He’s he’s already seeing the future of what this work should be. And I I’m I can get down with employee experience um as the as the function. I think that would actually solve a lot of problems between like marketing and TA. It’s like you know what why are you branding when we’re the brand and you know communications function like focus on the experience which it attracts and retains. Um however everything I’m hearing though I can easily see especially with agentic AI like >> if you don’t need to go out and research because you have an agent that can that already has access to all the information possible. It could then craft uh the strategy to uh to activate based on internal data um and highlighting the pain points. It can then craft imagery and video that looks indistinguishable from real people. It can then deploy that across anything social and digital. measure, tweak, rinse, recycle, repeat, and you’ve got a fully functioning, you know, employer brain apparatus that never had a human input. That’s not far-fetched, right? That’s like that’s like next week. That’s that’s not only coming, that is that’s inevitable, right? If if we keep going this way. So then you start to say, well, okay, where does it stop? Because then you can say well from a department can create agents that does that do these things that people do and they’re talking to other departments agents and then customers can create their own agents to do things on their behalf or or talent right candidates can create their own agents and now it’s not me working for you but my agent is this thing can go really far really fast right but somebody’s got to say well hold on because we’re still going to have all these people that aren’t on on on AI or techn tech uh don’t have access right in digital deserts uh things of that nature. So what’s the prognosis there? Like where where do you think it stops or where’s that healthy cut off before it gets like to terminator status >> Skynet? Right. >> Yeah. Right. Um so two so two things I think the government has a role to to play a big and I think I as you you know classic always behind right >> um behind like what’s what’s happening in in the business world >> tech world but I think governments have a huge role to play in terms of uh in New York actually just a couple weeks ago they’re now actually tracking how many jobs are being lost to AI right >> yeah yeah >> which is actually it’s good to at least start to understand the impact of AI uh on on us as a society and and and the labor force. Uh I do think there is going to be a future where you will likely have some sort of basic universal income. All right? Uh I wouldn’t call it welfare, right? But basic universal income uh because ultimately there is GDP that’s going to be generated actually more so than than the GDP at at the moment. Um so the government will have a role to play from a what what do we you know how do we define who gets paid what from a basic universal income standpoint but moreover from a capitalistic viewpoint John I do see a world where you will actually and this is I think I think 50 years from now probably if I was to guess right educated guess right u I would say 50 years from now I do see a world where you will be training your avatar uh or your agent and you and the agent isn’t like agent needs to learn from you, right? And so it’s constant upkeep of this agent, right? It’s not like it’s going to start just learning on its own, right? Like you have to continue to feed the agent. Um and so the agent is only as smart, frankly, as as what you what you train it to be, right? Um maybe there’ll be self-training agents. Uh but it still needs a human loop because the agent might say, “Oh, based on this, I just learned this. Emit, can you validate this?” Right? Um >> that’s if it’s courteous and polite. The idea is like I don’t need you. I already know it’s right. I’m just doing this for your benefit at this point. How? >> Yeah. I mean, that is >> No, Dave. >> I I’m more of a glass half full kind of guy, John. >> Oh, I wish I could be. I wish I could be. Like I’m questioning glasses at this point now. It’s like whether it’s full or half empty. I don’t know. >> I love it. >> I love it. But I think the avatars will get paid, right? So like for instance, >> for instance, you know, because you no longer need to code, right? Like you even have AI that can code. So um I do think humans will still be in a driver suit. I’m sorry that’s my dog if you heard her. Sorry about that. >> But no apologies. No apologies. Dogs bark. That’s Cole. Hey, hey there. >> So, um, you know, I do think, you know, you’ll you’ll be people will actually have to upskill in the sense of how do they train their agent, right? So, you’re already seeing prompt engineering jobs like pop up, right? And frankly, the prompt engineering jobs will it’s in a nutshell how you’re going to train your agent. Right. >> Right. Absolutely. because a lot of this data that we’re engaging with is data that’s been provided by external sources like us fed back into the model. So now the AI is not just I mean it’s already scraped all of the known possible information on the internet. Now we’re contributing more to it in which case it’s learning in real time so that the the the pool just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. All of that stated I’m going to shift gears a little bit to looking forward. um sort of your bold, ambitious, big bets for 25 and beyond, right? So, let’s let’s give you $10 million uh and you are uh thinking about what you need to do to attract and retain talent uh in in in the now, but also in the next five. And you’ve got 10 mil to spend on that. What do you do first? That’s a lot of money, John. Thank you for being there. >> Listen, to some to some to some that’s that’s that’s lunch for the weekend for the entire department across the f Yeah. But but yeah, 10 million, let’s say, to start with. Um, where do you where do you invest it? >> Gosh. Uh, if I’m a chief people officer, >> that’s it. Yep. Yep. Or chief talent officer or, you know, head of talent. >> Um, yeah. >> Yeah. I’m definitely investing in intelligence. like I want to I want to be able to gather more intelligence, right? So that’s one area. Um just there’s so much data that is unmined today that could be mined and for a lot of intel, right? Uh so people data, a lot of people data combining it with business data. So your CFO organization, your supply chain organization. So actually having a true enterprise level data set that can actually tell me hey you know hey business is going down uh here’s how many people you need to hire like all like in real time right or here’s how many people you need to let go these are the skills you need to let go so it’s it’s kind of workforce planning in a way it just happens in spreadsheets today and u well there there is some tech that’s available but it’s not as sophisticated as I’d like it to be so so I’m definitely putting some money there um putting some money in uh coaching uh managers and people leaders based on the intelligence we’re gathering from the experience right so um how are people experiencing working there and how do you coach leaders to have the right kind of conversation at the right time so so certainly putting some money there probably also AI agent like there’s so many AI coaches now available right um to to drive that uh business or I almost said business partner but people partners right uh >> I like that we’ve got you to change that nomenclature in this conversation that’s fantastic yes >> people partners uh >> there you go >> terms of equipping them to to do a better um to to know the business better or the people better right >> uh so really how do you enable the business partners recruiters ers in particular, how do you enable them to be more strategic with that intel? So, I’m I’m going back to like the AI intelligence layer to be like the where I would spend a lot of my money initially, right? Um, but based on that intel, how do you get recruiters to be more strategic? I know strategic is a word that gets thrown a lot around a lot, but really like if a wreck is open like, hey, let me help you figure out what your team dynamics are, right? Where do you have leadership gaps? And can you imagine recruiters being equipped with that kind of data, right? To have those kinds of conversations, right? So that’s how I would invest um on the on the recruiter front. Uh we talked about leadership development. Uh so that’s the managerial coaching as well as like succession planning and so on right >> uh and then compensation is the number one area I think it is ripe for for just fully AI takeover right because it’s all numbered >> it’s it’s really all numbers um you know I would I’d be hardressed to believe that you need so many people in total rewards uh with with AI right um >> shouts out to our our friends and family in total rewards But uh get ready. Get ready. >> Right. >> Or get smarter. Look, upskilled. This is the opportunity. >> Be on the front end of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think recruit recruiters are in a unique position because they’re the only like in in the in the world of HR and talent if they if they sit in HR because some recruiting organizations sit in the business, right? But if they sit in HR, which many of them do, I think recruiting the recruiting organization is in a very unique position because they are the they’re the only externally facing organization or the function in the entire HR department. Think about this. >> Fair point, >> right? Nobody else Total Rewards isn’t talking to candidates, right? Unless they’re hiring for another Total Rewards person, right? but they’re not talking to to external candidates. >> Yeah, they’re not sourcing talent. >> Learning and development isn’t right. Um you look at HR ops certainly isn’t right. And so recruiting is very interesting in the sense that you’re always going to need humans to to actually help the candidates make a decision whether they want to join you or not. Right. >> Oo, that’s a that’s a powerful statement. Um, and it’s one that I think circles back to what we’ve always known is that people trust people more than they trust companies, right? And it as as far as we are today where tech is becoming um, you know, uh, it’s having people question what’s real, what’s not. At the end of the day, when you can talk to a real person, um you know, there’s still people who want to bypass the automated uh you know uh bot on the phone to to talk to a real person even though it might be slower, less efficient, whatever. Something about that trust factor and I I think there’s there’s something to that in terms of those big bets. One thing I didn’t hear though that I think personally is going to be a big bet, a big bold bet that talent leaders need to think about is uh health and wellness. uh mental health and wellness as well, right? So, yes, you can drive all these efficiencies, you can, you know, uh reduce uh costs and all that stuff, but if the people aren’t healthy, then you’re going to that’s going to reflect in the work. >> Yeah, that is so huge, man. Like, I’m glad you mentioned that, John. So, yeah, there’s there’s mental and physical, right? And and often like you look at any of these group plans, right? At least in the US, you look at all these group health plans, right? like uh there’s about 2% that gets funded for for mental wellness and 98% of it is physical wellness. Right. >> Right. >> All connected. Um but there’s there’s a huge opportunity to >> to invest in that function and and I I do believe there are >> you know of course you have better help and like these kinds of you know um uh apps out there now but ultimately it is still human. I I call me old school, but I I think there’s a huge there there’s this huge uh disparity between consumer marketing and consumer behavior and candidate and people behavior and employee behavior. Often I think people get confused in the world of get this confused in the world of employer branding and recruitment marketing. I don’t think and I’d love to do by the way open call if anybody wants to do research with our company on this happy to invest in it um would love to do a study where you have an AI powered u you know content for for application purposes right or engagement purposes versus like a real human and and actually testing both scenarios um and and seeing the outcome of that. It’ll be a longer study because we don’t want to just see the outcome in terms of how many applicants but were they quality applicants right uh and that’s a longer term study but I I do think John that is such a huge mental and physical wellness is such a huge area that frankly HR departments just get sucked into and actually it’s total rewards who owns the budget for mental wellness right >> right that part >> and hopefully hopefully AI will solve for some of that because you’ll actually have real data that people will say, “Oh, shoot. If we don’t focus on mental wellness, this is how much it’s costing us in the group plants.” Right. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I wonder would it look like your out of office message is really now your out of office agent still getting your work done while you are recuperating, rejuvenating, >> taking vacation, doing what you’re doing, right? >> And we have another session on that, John. Yes. And for anybody who hears that and then takes that and runs with it, please know I do take royalties. Um, so look, Amit, I want to be conscious of your time and I’m grateful for what you’ve already given us and I feel like there’s so much more. We do need another session for sure. Um, I I would I would ask in in parting um, what is the one thing that has driven you um, and committed you to improving this space? um that that that wakes you up at night, the thing that that pushes you and keeps you steadfast committed to it. What is that thing that spark um and and what would you say uh in in sort of um encouragement to those in this space uh to keep doing or uh to to think about? >> Yeah, I I mean honestly it you know I live and breathe HR and and the people business, right? Um and for me it it has been like people spend what 80 85% of their life working right and unfortunately I hear way too many stories about this people are not happy with you know their working environment right and and it boils down to simple things like hey did you did your leader thank you for just having an amazing week this week right like simple simple things which is which actually goes back to storytelling and so for me like that’s what drives us and frankly that’s why we built what we did was to actually enable people to connect better at work right through amazing stories right like I’m sure John you’ve heard of the good news network right >> sure you know >> in in the in the world we live in today where there’s so much negative negativity generally right and some is some is real and some is I think just media driven but imagine like there are good things that happen in your company and and those good things never see, you know, the the light of day, right? and and how do you get those good things to to become the norm in a company through amazing stories and how do you enable leaders, recruiters, hiring managers, people like imagine you just go in John and you have a very nice, you know, platform where you can just, you know, pick up a thank you note or even create a quick thank you message and just drop it in your Outlook to another colleague, right? Just imagine that. It’s powerful, >> right? And we make it super easy for you. Like these are things that we just don’t we need to take we need to take a step back. And frankly, to your point, I think actually it might help with mental wellness, John. Right. Um or wellness in general. So there these are all connected dots. Uh the world we live in today in HR, right? So >> absolutely fascinating. um my friend, my brother, thank you so much for taking the time uh giving us a piece of you and your thought process and your experiences and your background. Thank you for the work that you continue to do uh for for your clients, for our function as a whole. And uh we hope to see you back on the employee branding unfiltered podcast soon. >> Thank you, John. I appreciate you having me. Thank you. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. For all those who are new, welcome. Uh if you haven’t started following uh uh Shaker yet, please visit us at shaker.com. Also, take a second, subscribe, click the bell if you’re catching this on YouTube so that you’ll be uh updated and notified of new episodes. Otherwise, continue to rock out with us on Apple uh podcast as well as Spotify podcast. Wherever you get your podcast, we’re there. And uh if you want to talk more about employer branding, I know a guy, reach out. Uh until then, be safe, be well, take care of yourselves and each other. We will see you on the next episode. [Music] [Music]