Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.6 – Shavonne Thomas

What’s the hardest part about being an employer brander in the year of our Lord 2025? >> You know, I always say that to be a professional in this space. >> Yeah. >> You have to be resourceful and you have to know how to pivot. You are not someone who is comfortable in gray space where things are not clearly defined >> and you are not comfortable also, you know, being maybe the only person in the room that knows what your >> discussing what your what your job is. I didn’t want to say that, but yes. Right. >> What is she doing again? >> This isn’t the space for you. Like you have to you it’s being uncomfortable >> uh but being so comfortable in knowing what you are doing >> and you know >> you have to be someone who you know has their own intrinsic ability. >> Yeah. >> To to lead and and be you know upfront direct you know at the forefront because >> no one else is going to do it for you. >> Okay. Count me down. Okay. Yes. All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Employer Branding Unfiltered. I am super excited. So, this one has been in the planning stages for the better part of a year and and for no other reason than this woman is probably the hardest woman, a working woman in employer branding. Um, we have known each other for quite a while. uh and and admired I’ve admired her journey through this space uh especially because she is doing EB in the pharma space which uh I got my chops uh in farm as well uh brilliant mind uh business professional consumate employer brand strategist I am so excited to have you here Siobhan Thomas >> my gosh I don’t know how to live up to all of those things >> well we’re going to try we’re going to try listen welcome to the show welcome to the vision. >> This is dope. >> Love this space. It’s given like all the like inspiration, the vibes. I feel >> even just being in the office. I want to give you Shaker just a a >> talk about it. >> Like the vibe in the office is just there’s energy here. There’s people like everybody’s doing the stuff. So, it just feels good. >> I feel it is a buzz, right? It almost feels like I’m in a tech office. Like I’m in a you know, I don’t know. It’s just the aura. >> I I love that. Oh, that’s so good to hear. I will certainly relay that to Joe Shaker for sure. >> Speaking of inspiration, you you grab something from our inspiration wall. For those who aren’t familiar, for any of our guests who come to the hub and in the vision lab, uh the first place we stop is the inspiration wall, and it’s a wall of items. We’ll we’ll show you some of that maybe in the B-roll, but uh a wall of items, and the guest gets to choose the one that chooses them. So Siobhan, what inspirational item chose you today? >> I love these affirmation cards. I’ve really kind of gotten into this on my own personal journey. >> Shuffle them up. >> I know. That’s why I’m like, how can I like I have small hands, too. Like I can’t like >> I’m a terrible like when I play like spades or cards or whatever, my family makes fun of me all they’re like, “You and your baby hands. You’re not doing anything.” >> You can’t do the bridge. >> I can’t do I can’t >> Oh, see. Yeah. No, you you better. But I >> my bridge is trash. >> Yeah, >> nobody crosses. >> I didn’t say it. It was great. I just said I could do it. Okay, so I’m going to turn these over and I’ll pick one and then put it. >> So, we have for those who didn’t see >> the You got this inspirational affirmation cards. Well-being affirmation cards. All right. >> Okay. >> Oh, I love this one. >> Okay. >> So, I guess my affirmation for today is each day is a new beginning. I I believe that to be true. >> I do believe that to be true. >> Every day you get a new opportunity. >> A new opportunity will start over. >> Leave this right here. >> I also feel like that kind of goes hand in hand. You want to leave it >> right there. Yep. >> Um >> for the world to say, >> you know, where they uh say, and I also am trying to like keep this top of mind for myself. Yeah. >> You get the same 24 hours that Beyonce gets every day. >> Look, she just what you want to do with it um is your choice. >> Fantastic. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So, >> let’s let’s let’s get the people familiar with who you are. >> Okay. >> Tell tell them tell them what you do. >> Yep. >> And where you’ve been to get here. >> Oh, journey. Um, I feel like everybody that I talk to in the employer brand space has a very similar journey. Even like just generally in talent acquisition, right? >> No one goes to college or to school to say, I want to be an employer brand professional and, you know, create brands or, you know, whatever. >> That’s a fact. um fell into this like everybody else has. Um I started in talent acquisition. I came started from the bottom >> talent acquisition uh coordinator. >> Okay. >> Um learned all the ins and outs. But I will tell you like >> for anyone that hasn’t taken that journey. It was the best boot camp because you understand at the very ground level TA. >> Yes. Yes. >> And you understand all of the things from, you know, the candidate communication to, you know, process ATS and all of those things that really, really truly like play into your day-to-day in doing employer brand and recruitment marketing. Right. >> Gotcha. >> Um, I’ve worked in several different industries. Um, I’ve had a lot of great exposure to so many different teams. Um so I started in I live in the DC area. So government contracting was you know a lot of the beginning of my early stages early in my career. >> Um and then moved into you know some management consulting companies the Booze Allens the Accentur >> um and then again randomly fell into pharma. >> I am not a science thinker. I am not that analytical. And it was also another one of those like stages in my career where it was like okay this is different. The work is it is what it is right everyone in employer brand space like we we’re typically you know managing the same thing and or managing all the things. >> Um but that was the first time where it was like really truly >> trying to speak to employees about their experience and allowing them the opportunity to talk about their experience in a different way. And I say that because when you’re working with, you know, people that have tech backgrounds or science background, you know, you know, this, >> um, they were like, I don’t want to talk. Don’t put me on camera. What do I say? How do I say it? I don’t even know how to talk about this. This is just what I do every day. I do these amazing, you know, things every day and I’m just in it. >> Yeah. >> Um, but we’re like, no, we want you to be in it, but we want you to tell everybody else about that experience and that, you know. Um so talent ambassadorship was like a huge journey um when I started um in the pharma space and I was at Astroenica. >> Okay. Yeah. >> That was also one of the first times where it was like okay we need a EVP. We don’t know what to do with it but we think we need it. >> Um and we got to a space where we had it and then it was like now what? >> Oh yes. We’re going to dig into that. >> Like how what what is this thing? It’s on paper. It’s It’s a It’s a thing. Like, by the way, what is EVP? Is it employee? Is it employer? Like, what is it? >> Um, >> so it was like, okay, and then who approves it? Who, you know, that has been a thing uh several times in my career. >> Um, especially if this space is new, right? >> And it was very much so then. >> Um, and it was just like we just have to get into it. >> Yeah. >> Like let’s do some campaigning. Let’s get some budget. let’s, you know, and I’m always like sorry for all of the employers that I’ve worked for in the past cuz I typically ask for forgiveness after and just go and do the things that you know I feel are the right things to do. I I mean it’s >> kind of have to >> you have to be like a you have to be like risk a little risk >> risk on not risk on >> because when you’re working in industries that are heavily regulated >> they’re not risk takers. They are not risk takers like >> it’s um so yeah um >> not when it comes to employer brand >> not when it comes to right right >> breakthrough drug >> all day >> all day right >> employer brand like wait you want to say what and you want us to to talk about our you know what we offer and what wait but you know so um so yeah um where am I where am I up to so >> now we’re up to here >> now we’re up to here I’m now at AV yeah >> um which Abby has such an amazing story and that was what drew me to the organization. Um because it’s not just and I mean again I can say it I guess cuz I work there and be you know >> um but it’s their experience and how they have worked at speed and at scale to bring products to market in their short tenure. Like that story is just like incredible like you don’t see that and again you being familiar with you know pharma and bioarma and you know clinical trials and all of the pro like that stuff takes time >> and we were able to deliver they had a directive they wanted to deliver 10 products to market in 10 years and they did like that was incredible >> and we’re still doing the things they’re still pressing you know the envelope and you know trying to create new discoveries and new opportunities and and that is really what drives me every um in this >> uh in this space. >> So >> I like a lot of us um I am a a team of one um and we are over we have over 50,000 employees globally. Um it also was a bit different too because um this is the first pharma organization that I’ve worked for that their headquarters is in the US. So ways of working is a little you know different um >> but um and you know they’re very you know focused >> where their headquarters is and you know that is you know where a lot of the magic happens um etc. So >> we’re on a journey to you know really explain and share our story um and our culture. I will talk about that too because that’s a huge >> it’s a huge thing um for you know the organization that you know where I am now um and also just >> creating that connect point for our teams our leaders and helping them understand that you know EVP and culture don’t have to be in a boxing match all the time like these are the things that help to drive all of together they should work in you know in tandem so um >> that’s a lot of the I don’t know, you know, for anybody that follows me on uh LinkedIn, I did that whole uh what is it where you create your action figure? >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I had uh chat GBT actually because it now knows me. Um was like, “Yeah, you’re definitely on your soap box and you’re very passionate.” And I was like, “Soapox? I guess that is me because I’m always like preaching um >> the gospel of employer brand.” Yes. the gospel of this and it not just being a thing like that sits on the side that you know making pretty pictures and creating taglines and you know all of that like this is this plays a bigger part in you know business strategy and >> our business success um >> at the end of the day >> fascinating journey >> yes you’ve >> that was a lot >> no no it’s look this is we this is where you purge all of the employer brand traumas >> this is the purge of of employer brand traumas uh Well, speak. She almost spit water, folks. >> We need it. >> This is good. >> We might need a support group, >> I think. So, there’s a huge market for EB therapy. >> Um, so speaking of that, I want to I want to hear what is the hardest part of your job >> in employer brand and then we’ll get into some of the >> some of the mechanics of it, but >> as it stands today, what’s the hardest part about being an employer brand in the year of our Lord 2025? here. I you know I always say that to be a professional in this space >> and everyone that I’ve met in this space is is that right you have to be resourceful >> and you have to know how to pivot and if you are not someone who is comfortable in gray space where things are not clearly defined >> and you are not comfortable also you know being maybe the only person in the room that knows what you’re, you know, really at the the the base of it, you know, really what you’re discussing, what your what your job is. >> I didn’t want to say that, but yes. Right. >> What is she doing? >> Um, you know, it it this isn’t the space for you. Like you have to you it’s being uncomfortable uh but being so comfortable in knowing what you are doing >> and you know >> you have to be someone who you know has their own intrinsic ability >> to to lead and and be you know upfront direct you know at the forefront because >> no one else is going to do it for you. I you know don’t know an easier way to to say that. Um, so I guess so I will say the most difficult piece is feeling like you’re the only one sometimes >> because sometimes you are the only one. >> Um, and then also just you know in in general um you know you you have to always be prepared to share. >> Like there’s no room for not being prepared. That’s that’s strong. >> That’s ready. >> You got to stay ready. Like there’s no time that you there’s no like, okay, well, I’m going to get ready. No, you always have to be on. >> Um, and that sounds harsh, but it’s just true because, you know, this is not something that, you know, people easily grasp. When you talk brand anyway, you know, it’s not just employer brand, just brand generally to people who are very analytical, want, you know, very clear data points. What am I going to get? What is this, you know, etc. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> you know, it’s it’s having the >> conversation points that mean the most to that stakeholder that you’re you’re talking to. And you have to, you know, again, that pivot piece, like you have to give them the stuff that matters to them. Mhm. Yeah. >> The same for everyone. You have to know your audience. You have, you know, it’s it’s not the same for every single stakeholder. You you got your communicators, you’ve got your leadership, you’ve got, you know, talent acquisition. You’ve got, you know, there everyone’s after a different thing. All even though we’re all in the same game, we all at the end of the day want the same thing. Um, which is great talent to join the organization and stay at the organization. Um, >> but how do you get there? Um, is it differs. That’s where the that’s where the disconnect comes or I say the opportunity >> to bring people along and that so so a lot of great points in there. I think the tough part is being the only one in the room who knows fully what you do. >> Mh. >> Having to educate a lot. Yep. >> Um especially educating for people who educating people who brought you in because they know they needed you but don’t know exactly why they need you >> or how you’re supposed to do what they need you to do and then you got >> over the years I have I have I’ve maybe said this like quite a few times that point where it’s like >> like you you >> I didn’t I didn’t write a letter and say, “Hey, by the way, like it’d be really great to have me.” Like, no. Like, yeah, it’s it’s it’s crazy. Um, but it is true. That’s so true. >> And it’s and it’s com it’s common place, right? Like, this is what we do. And it’s it’s I f I’m fascinated by how long this has been a a job, a function, and how many people still don’t know what >> still don’t know. So this is one of the things that we do on employer branding unfiltered is really try to educate those in our space who know of it right maybe have a loose understanding of it and from a practitioner’s perspective >> really just demystifying it. >> So so one of the questions and this this has come up a lot recently is like the difference between employer branding and recruitment marketing. Yeah I know I know. So I would love for you to just give your take. Mhm. >> on the difference between those two. >> So, uh I I there was someone in the space who uh put it together uh for me and it was easy for me to take it to >> um my stakeholders. So, recruitment marketing is so if you think you know the candy bar, the rapper on the candy bar is you know the employer brand. >> Mhm. getting it on the shelf to that consumer who you know is going to want that candy bar >> is the the marketing piece of it. >> Brilliant. >> Um, >> brilliant. >> I mean, and it’s just that simple. The hard part for >> us in this space often is to justify the brand piece of it. That’s always a thing because with recruitment marketing, you can say, “Okay, we’ll tie this to we have x amount of openings or we we’re going to we’re forecasting we have jobs and we know we want x amount of applications and we want conversions, etc.” And that’s your data point and that how that’s how you deliver ROI. >> Excuse me. I’ve gone on a journey um over the last few years um again soapbox moments um talking about the value of organic and the value of an impression and what that means for us to you know get that conversion. Um but then also that brand sharing that brand with the right talent >> so that when they are ready to make a move they can determine for themselves whether that employer is the right employer for them or it’s not. >> And that’s the beauty of your brand and your and your marketing efforts being able to tell that story and say reach out to you know it’s not just reaching the talent that have the skill. more >> you at the end of the day what our job is is to get the right talent in at the right time. >> Um that is going to make a contribution to the organization and again that’s where you tie it and you know that bigger piece that >> business strategy and business success. >> Um that’s what what all of this that’s what all of this is meant to do. >> I love it. I love it. Great great analogy for can’t for those take the candy bar run with it. I’m not going to take credit for that because it was someone else in our space. I just don’t remember but I I used it in a presentation to um one of my stakeholder groups and they were actually able to grasp it. And the other way that I uh talk about it too specifically for my stakeholders um because they understand product marketing, you know, getting our medicines, you know, on the shelves and I explain to them if you don’t tell anybody that the medicine’s on the shelf, >> they’re not going to know that it’s there. You see, you know, you we know that there’s value in sharing that we have what this product is, what it does, >> who it’s for. >> It’s the same thing in employer brand. Mhm. >> What is this organization? What do we do? How do we make an impact? And who is this organization for in terms of talent? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I like to say that um you know, recruitment marketing is about putting butts in seats. >> Yep. >> But employer branding is telling the butt for the seat what it feels like. >> What is the experience of sitting in said seat? Why should you want to be >> Why should you you want this >> versus that seat, >> right? And maybe the CD isn’t for you. >> I’m working on that one. Just bear with me. >> We got to uh we got to we’ll >> uh it’s unfiltered, folks. It’s unfiltered. >> See, I told you that we were going to get in trouble. I don’t know why you put me. >> I told you I’d protect you through this process. >> I don’t know how I’m doing. Uh who’s protecting me? So, so look. So, this is this is an interesting thing. So, you currently sit in the HRTA function. Yeah. So >> um we have HR communications >> okay >> which is not a part of talent acquisition it’s under talent uh what for our organization >> okay >> so talent acquisition is a client group >> okay >> probably my number one client group right >> um but then there’s also uh culture there’s also you know so we have ces >> yeah um total rewards and all of that um that >> stated myself compensation and benefits It’s like chief HR offic. >> I said there was a Oh god, I mentioned snag a job or something like that to someone and I was like, “Oh my god, I’m ancient.” >> Um >> I remember them. >> Yes. Um so anyway, >> yes. Okay. So you’re in the HR >> HR. So yeah, currently this is actually the first role that I’ve had that’s in that space. >> Um >> how has that been? >> It’s interesting. It’s just, you know, different not being directly under the talent acquisition umbrella. >> Sure. Um so it’s been a lot of coaching for talent acquisition on how to leverage you know like our you know what we produce etc. Um but it’s not like in the weeds >> and we kind of also separated um so I um in my team >> solo dooo >> yeah um employer brand you know um enterprise employer brand initiatives and then um recruitment marketing functional recruitment marketing and um the one concession that was made was that any like job ads marketing that would be managed directly in our talent acquisition organization. >> Makes sense. >> So, we’re still again like there’s we’re still figuring it out. Um, and of course since I opened Pandora’s box about more recruitment marketing efforts versus us just posting jobs on LinkedIn um, and doing sponsored jobs on LinkedIn, you know, we’re talking about programmatic and programmatic ads and programmatic jobs and Google search ads and all of those things. >> Now it’s like everybody wants the shiny shiny new thing. So we’re doing more a lot more functional specific campaigns which are funded by our business. >> Okay. So the business is paying for the promotion of the jobs that are open. >> Talk to me about the culture work and showcasing the experience. >> Yeah. So we are fortunate um at Abby that culture is at the helm of you know our employee experience right and we have a pretty robust culture team >> and we have what we call at AV the ways we work. So there are tenants that you know we as employees know like this is kind of like the AV way >> this is how we do the stuff and make the sauce right. Um so we take that um and we have a narrative and we have you know all of those pieces you know >> have made sure that there is integration between you know we have our EVP we have our employer brand uh playbook our strategy you know all of our key messaging etc and make sure that there’s a marriage between that our philosophy when I joined um ABV was to create less separation between the corporate brand and the employer brand. Okay. Because before it was a total they were two totally things. Yes. >> Um >> and the purpose behind that was again just to make sure that you know there was intersectionality that there was alignment and we were very clear um about what it is that you know really is the makeup >> of Abby. So our employer brand um or our EVP is together we break through >> and that speaks to our um ability and one of the things that Abby prides itself on is uh the crossf functional um opportunities for employees to work not just within you know their team their group you know etc. We also, you know, have put a lot of emphasis on professional development, not just being, you know, doing the everyday, you know, standard, you know, but thinking, you know, more high level and thinking, you know, bigger, um, and more global. Um, that’s a big piece of of our story. And then just also inclusivity has always just been a big, you know, part of our our story. And that’s not going to change, >> right? So >> yeah, >> I was going to ask uh you said the eye word. >> I know. I don’t >> So I mean >> I feel like now we have to talk about it. >> Okay. >> So 2025. >> Yeah. >> It’s been quite a roller coaster thus far and we’re only >> five and a half months in. >> How has the shifting de andi landscape impacted your EB work? Cuz >> look, I mean it’s it’s who you’re showing, it’s what you’re saying, right? you know, and government contractors and yeah, how how have you navigated that as an employer branding professional? I won’t I won’t get you into the legal weeds, but you still have to sell >> That’s right. >> this culture to prospective talent and ensure that those who are already here are still in love with you. >> That’s right. I will, you know, I won’t speak specifically about Abby. No, just as a practitioner >> generally as a practitioner um I’ve noticed um that there has been >> there’s been a shift in in one or two directions. I think it’s you know there are companies who have totally decided that you know their commitment to you know those efforts or diversity you know whatever >> um >> they’re they’re gone. They’re not you know concerned about I will say I’m so glad I’m not in the government contracting space anymore because that that that would be you know really tough. Yeah. >> Um, however, I think the employers who are doing it right know that that is still a that’s that’s still an important tenant for a business to >> not necessarily like, oh, we have a DEI program or we have, you know, like what why do we even have to say that, you know, um, but that they care >> that their employees feel at home, feel included, and, you know, feel good about who they work for and you know what that >> opportunity is available to them you know within you know that organization. So as a practitioner, >> I’m I’m excited that, you know, some of the brands that, you know, I’ve either previously worked for or currently, you know, etc. have, you know, decided that no, that’s still very important for us. Not only because, you know, it is generally important as a social construct or whatever. >> Um, but because we need that in order to do good work >> at the, you know, very basic, you know, >> that’s right. So, um, and for for me, I think that that will continue to be, you know, where I stand >> a lot. >> It’s it’s a it’s a it’s a weird world in the sense that, you know, it’s not illegal to showcase who works at your organization, right? >> Right. >> So, you know, we and I’ve seen everything from just complete scrubbing of of career sites to, you know, pulling down social campaigns. These are things that are happening. >> Yeah. But at the same time now, how do you square the circle of well, we still need talent, not only to come join, but also to stay. >> That’s right. >> And so when you have a lot of companies who have paused on hiring or slowed down hiring considerably, now the game is retention. And so as someone who is tasked with showcasing the culture as it as it is and aspirationally how you want it to be, um I can imagine that there’s some challenges there. You’ve you’ve been in conversations or you’ve >> had friends in the space who are like going through it. >> Yeah. >> And I uh I was just reading the um and I shared it out actually with my team because I had a lot of great information. Yeah. >> Who’s the vendor? They put out their I think it was not cozy. >> No. >> Oh. >> Um AppCast I think. >> Okay. >> They did their like kind of state of recruitment marketing report. They just released it and um >> they referenced uh you know kind of the state of affairs where we are in the labor market and you know five years ago or four years ago it was you know uh you know everyone was leaving you know their jobs because they wanted more support in you know that space and more you know >> they wanted their employer to also take a stance as it related to like social justice reform. They wanted to hear those things and you know people were seeing that they wanted to match their values with their employer. >> Yeah. >> And now I guess apparently we’re in uh what they’re calling the great stay >> where >> Yeah. >> Um you know it’s they’re finding that. So you talk about retention. So getting the right talent not only in the organization but you know making sure that they feel comfortable enough to stay. when we talk about, you know, inclusion and, you know, how how we do that and how, you know, we make that make sense for our culture. >> That’s a big that that’s huge. It’s not just a selling point. It’s not like, oh, well, you know, we encourage diversity, you know, it’s I feel like that was always just like a statement like a throwaway like I feel like in a lot, you know, everyone has it in their job descriptions, you know, along with their, you know, whatever. But >> that was the wave. It was >> Oh, yeah. It was right. the trend, >> but how companies are actually doing it. Like I feel like we’ve uncovered >> or we’re like taking off the the veil and >> companies are now having to actually like show improve. Not just say we encourage, you know, whatever. >> Yeah. >> Um but how are you doing it? >> And that’s part of that like really sharing your culture, really sharing, you know, what what’s what’s underneath, you know, the surface. So, I I I’m fascinated by I’m completely intrigued by this notion of transparency being the new authenticity, but I’m evolving that a bit to say vulnerability >> is the new authenticity. >> I like that. >> And it’s hard for for an employer brander to want to push that because it’s fully reliant on the corporation, right? How comfortable is your leadership going to be about being vulnerable >> uh about who they are as a as a culture, as a company? How do you balance that >> that sort of cuz we we we work at these organizations too. We’re not just tasked with >> showcasing the we are employees of those companies when we’re internal. >> How do you how do you balance that? I want to I want to give a candidate uh enough information to be able to make a decision on is this where they want to invest their time, their talent >> versus hey, this is who we are and I really want you to make a decision if you can’t ride with that. >> Right. >> Right. So, how do you how do you navigate that space? And >> I don’t have all the answers sway. >> I will say that um you know that’s rough. I I feel like a lot of that um and where you know I if I have the opportunity to you know to coach like hiring teams >> about being fully you know transparent like during the hiring process like I feel like it’s our job yes to you know have ambassadors and have you know employees tell their story. I’m I’m always like encouraging employees to do more sharing on their own channels and their own networks. Of course, we know that that comes across way more authentic than >> the HR or you know the organization saying it. >> That’s right. >> Um so it’s like that piece but you know like the typical employee doesn’t know what transpar like and then we still have our rules that we have to follow like you can’t say this you can’t do that you can’t post this. Um, >> yeah. >> So, where I have encouraged my team, >> um, mainly like TA, like when they’re having conversations with hiring managers and when they do have openings and we’re actually going to start, um, doing more employee generated video. >> Um, and that’s one place where it’s like, we truly really want you, we’re going to give you a prompt, but I don’t I’m not going to give you a script. Like, I want you to really like tell me your experience. I mean, if you’re going to trash us, then, you know, we won’t use that. >> But I mean, >> it’s therapeutic, you know. >> I think it’s also, you know, and that’s a good point, too, like making sure that you understand that team is huge and gleaning insight from, you know, exit interviews and and not all companies, you know, do that anymore. Um, >> so there’s a lot of assumption. >> Yeah. Um that comes into play too like you know because hiring managers or team leads or whomever you know they’re always like my team is great my team does you know we’re fantastic everyone wants to come and work here. >> Yeah. >> So I it is a hard balance. I again I don’t have a definitive like this is exactly how we do it but I do think you know there is a there’s definitely more opportunity to leverage employee generated content >> and getting it in front of you know teams I also like I said I would encourage more of that in those conversations about you know as you’re getting more into the recruitment process about the role what you expect etc and I also am trying to encourage my hiring managers to be more at the forefront so that again people and see like this is who, you know, I’m potentially considering working for and this is what they expect. >> Um, >> and not so much expectation, but like, you know, hiring manager, let’s do a video job description. What does success look like on your team? What does success look like in this role? And really put it out there. And that’s, I think, a a good way to, you know, really kind of tell it. >> I I don’t disagree. I I would love to see the hiring manager video, the the video job description that tells you exactly why you shouldn’t apply. >> Yeah. >> Tell me all the reasons why this is not for you. >> But if you know, if these are the things that you would run towards, then we have you. >> I would love to see a brand also do that. >> I’m waiting like I want to see a a full repel brand campaign. It’s like crazy part a lot of these conversations I find myself in with folks who do this work >> one particular brand comes up frequently >> Goldman Sachs. >> Now when you think Goldman Sachs and and I know you have a a feeling about it as you hear it but what you know about that culture having never worked for Goldman Sachs but what we know >> is that they are not for everybody >> and they have no apologies telling people who’s not for them. >> That’s right. In fact, so much so they’ll tell you straight up, it’s a grindhouse. Like, you are going to work harder than you’ve ever worked. You’re probably going to be uh, you know, challenged in ways you never thought you would. It’s going to be hard. It’s going to like all of these things. And yet, and still, people line up around the block to work for them. We’ll run through brick walls to work for them. And and so you have to think, okay, so what is it about knowing how hard this is going to be or maybe how uncomfortable I’m going to be, but what is on the other side of that? >> And it’s like this prestige of having Goldman Sachs on your resume or the relationships you’re you’re going to make or the amount of money you’re about to make, right? And all these things, these are the things that if you can be very clear about who you are not, people still run towards. I mean Netflix culture, radical cander, I know um you know there there’s other companies out there that have these like look man this isn’t for everybody. >> Everything isn’t for everybody. >> That’s a fact. But yet so many employer branders make their brands for every >> and no and that’s when you’re not doing it. You’re doing you’re doing it wrong. >> I I mean it’s not for everybody. You’re the place that you work is not for for everybody. Why would anyone if that was the case? everyone work for the same >> everybody would work for everyone >> like every like no so I I appreciate that like that’s a really good example and and you’re right there are the people who are willing to make the grind and you know it’s all that risk and reward it’s very different for every human being >> that’s right >> so >> yeah I’d love to see the evolution not only for the repel side but when uh I think it was like LinkedIn talent connect 2022 maybe when it was in LA >> um Caroline Wonga uh current CEO at Essence um was a keynote and she she said that we need to stop trying to make these cultures places where people come and they stay forever, >> right? We don’t want you forever. You we should we should be positioning our people to come in, make an impact, give them skills that make them highly valuable. um give them a great experience and then let them go off into their next experience and carry that brand equity, that brand goodwill, >> right, >> forward, >> right? >> And now, right, so I I always ask like what would what would somebody who’s trying to poach your talent want them for? >> Like what? Right. Because you you know, like we’ve all heard, oh no, we’ve got to get such and such from X company. >> Yeah. And it’s like no idea who the person is, but because of where they were, they are now highly attractive on the market. How do you make your company the company that says I want to go steal talent from them? >> That’s right. >> You know what I’m saying? >> Very true. >> Yeah. So, from a brander perspective, I think we have some play in that, but there’s also a cultural element. >> Yes. >> That we don’t necessarily get to shape. >> You know, to your earlier point about um >> we don’t want, you know, this to be the place that employees come and stay forever, right? That’s so true. Like just think like human people evolve over time too. Does you don’t you’re not the same person you were at 20 um when you’re you know 50 years old. >> That’s right. >> And you know you you want also to create the experience that makes sense for that employee in their you know whatever life you know span they’re in. Um >> and make it make sense for them. That I love that. >> Yeah. Well, we’ll ponder that for a bit. Um, yeah. I want to be conscious of your valuable time. >> So, um, >> is that you want to tell me I’m talking too much? >> No, no, no, no, no, no. It’s me. It’s me probably telling I’m I’m talking too much and this is your space. >> Um, I want to I want to ask uh a question. Actually, we’re at the part in the show where uh we have our guests leave a question for the next guest to answer and then you in turn can leave a question for our next guest. for the question that was left for you. >> Now gosh, >> get brace yourself now. Um, what are you doing to make the the space better for the next person coming behind you? >> And are we talking >> EB space? >> Yes. >> Oo. What am I doing to make the space better? I am by nature I think um I like connections. >> Yeah. >> And I’ve had you know the opportunity to make several connections with many other practitioners in this space. >> Um just generically like even just like hey I saw your post the other day. That was fantastic. That was great. Or hey by the way I see you’re still in the market. >> Yeah. >> I saw this great job. or I heard, you know, someone and you might want to connect with this person, etc. I think it’s just generally just giving all of this space a hug because I feel like we need it. Um, and I wish, you know, at some point in my and and I have I’ve had, you know, really, you have been one of them, you know, and several other individuals who I can name >> um have embraced me in this space and I feel like that is just so important >> just generally like we are a community of of people that like just knowing that like when I meet random people that I’ve not met before and they do this work and I’m like, “Oh my god.” like and then it’s like we’re speaking the same language. >> Hey, you know, right? >> So, I I I try to be cognizant of that when you know I have the ability to do that. Um I’m not going to pretend that I am metrics queen or I’m I have all the thought pieces or or whatever, but I know enough to be dangerous. >> Sure. >> And you know, whatever I can contribute to, you know, other practitioners, um you know, I will and I’m always, you know, willing to do that. So, >> I love it. Give the community a hug. >> A communal hug. Yes. Just >> warm embrace to those. >> Got to get that support group going. >> Look, there’s not many of us, man. >> It’s not. >> It’s growing. >> It is, >> but it’s still not a vast community. And and when you do engage with other employer branders who who get it, who understand what you’re dealing with, >> that community is so important. So, >> yeah. >> Absolutely. So, in due fashion, what question would you like to leave for the next? >> I would love to know. And I think it’s because I’m kind of in this, you know, I’m in this process for myself. >> All right. >> What’s next? >> And not just for this space, >> okay, >> but >> because we get often pigeonholed in this space, >> what are they considering, you know, next on the radar, you know, for them. Um I mean we there are people that you know people who are going to be lifers and you know do this work you know forever but what I know about many people in the space is >> you you hit a period where it’s like okay >> I’ve done all the things >> I have done this you know it you it’s like groundhog day like you join another company and you do it all over again or you do you know so >> what’s next and where do we where do we see ourselves? Okay. I I think that’s a great question to ask the next individual. And I think also of our space, what’s next? >> Yeah. >> There’s not a lot of talk about that. Let’s let’s let’s talk about it. >> Mhm. >> Siobhan, I can’t thank you enough for this time. I feel like we we could go two more hours. >> I know. I know. This time went really fast. I just >> Listen, good conversations do that. >> That’s right. >> So, we would love to have you back. anytime you’re in town, definitely let us know. For sure. Uh we can always do this from abroad as well. So that’s right. >> Thank you, friend. >> Thank you for having me. >> Absolutely. All right. We’ll we’ll see y’all on the next episode for sure.