Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.5 – Ankit Pathak

Your EVP is not your culture. >> I don’t think so. >> That’s a bar for >> If your two-page PDF is your culture, you have a lot of other things you need to figure out. >> That’s not your first profit. >> Just imagine you’re a candidate. We’ve all we’re all we all do this work. We we know a good job description when we see if it’s just the EVP and there’s nothing else. There’s no other nuance. >> What? >> Yeah. Next. >> So, it can influence it um in in right or wrong ways, right? But it is not the culture. culture is a very very different thing that I don’t think EB is the culture though. >> That’s right. >> It’s a part of it. It amplifies it or it chooses not to amplify to your point of chosen transparency. >> There you go. >> Um in it’s an influence. [Music] >> So employer branding unfiltered friends family welcome. This is our uh first our inaugural EB unfiltered straight out of the vision lab at Shaker headquarters. Um we have an exciting guest here today. Uh and I can’t wait for you to meet him. Um me and this gentleman have been to many a conference and find ourselves in the deepest of conversations over food usually. >> Barbecue last time. >> Barbecue last time. And I always want more. And so I was like, I’ve got to get him on the podcast. So everybody, uh, please welcome Kid Pro. >> Yeah, >> my guy. Welcome. >> Thank you for having me. >> Well, no, thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. So got a lot to start with, a lot to cover, but first and foremost, >> how are you in this moment? >> And then who are you in this moment? >> Oo, how am I? Um, interesting contextually cuz when we first talked about doing this, um, I still had a job. that part. >> Um, and this is a real part of being in the space, right? We’ve seen it across our LinkedIn feeds, a ton of people that we care about, practitioners that are incredibly good at what they do. Um, so I find myself in this situation for the second time in the last 5 years. Um, but an opportunity to reinvent myself. So, I’m thinking about that, thinking about what’s next. Is it the continuation of EB? Is it do I feel like there’s a ceiling for me? Is it coaching? So that’s how I’m doing as of right now. So I’m good, but it’s a it’s an interesting time to have a ship. But I am grateful to have >> healthcare after this job is finished up now for a few months. And I’m also grateful to have time off for a little bit cuz that’s hard to do it feels like as well. So I have at least a month or two off here um before maybe the next thing. And then I’m going to take advantage of it as much I can. So, I’m be grateful for the time I have with my wife, my dog, and then spending time um figuring out what what’s next for me in this next version of me. >> I love it. I love it. So, that’s how you’re doing now. >> Who are you in this moment? >> Who am I in this moment? Um who am I in this? >> We can do we can we can we can shape it a bit more from an employer brand perspective. Yeah, we’ll keep it in that space. >> Um right now, um employer brand. So, literally before last Friday, I was an employer brand lead at a mental health company called Spring Health. Um, some people might know it as an actual benefit um that they have as an employee at a company. Um, so uh I did that work for about 2 and 1/2 years. So, that is still ingrained in me on the day-to-day on figuring out employee advocacy programs, figuring out what awards we’re going to be trying to win, really trying to figure out where the conversation of diversity, equity, inclusion, and candidate communications lies. right now with the current >> the current environment, the the sucky environment, let’s call I’ll call it what it is. These are my feelings, >> shitty cultures, >> the the the really shitty feelings and decisions that really great companies sometimes are having to make with this in mind, right? And there’s a lot more context and nuance that’s there. I’m not calling anyone out at all, but it just sucks for a lot of people involved who care about these things and have built things for the right reasons that haven’t been built before. Um, so I’m really honestly thinking about those in the employer brand lens and figuring out whatever this next >> chapter is for me, >> how do I come in and showcase that that’s what I care about right away. If you don’t do that out of the gate, it’s hard to ask for it 6 months in is my learning. So I need to understand what’s my match maybe going to be and is it the right match? Right? if there’s conversation and nuance in an interview there and they’re like, “Hey, we would love to, but we just don’t know if we can because of the work that we do or what we sell and the industries we’re in.” Okay, at least you’re aware of it and you want to do something. Or is it just, hey, we actually just never did this before. We only did it for like 2 years actually post 2020 and then we didn’t really care about it. Then I already know, hey, that that’s that’s not it. I’m not for you and you’re not for me. So that’s who I am in employer brand right now. as who I am outside of my career probably too. Um I have a strong sense of that moral compass a lot and we’ve talked about that a lot. >> I was going to say that that that really uh I think draws me in highly magnetic in the sense that you are very humanity centric. >> Yes. >> And and you’ve done a lot of deep work in that space uh personally and I think it sort of definitely emanates uh you know from an aura perspective. So >> yeah of of course man. So, thank you for sharing that. First and foremost, I would love to know when, and this is a question we ask all of our guests, but when did you first fall in love with employer brand? >> Ooh, I want to break that word up into two, brand and then employees. >> Employees. Okay. >> Uh, I was lucky enough to be in high school and I saw that iconic Apple ad for the first time in my advertising class. Um, the Super Bowl one where the girl runs 1984. Um, so that was before I’m 92 born, so it’s before my time. Um, yeah, sorry there. It’ll be okay. It’ll be We got water. We got water. >> Help. >> Um, but I remember seeing that in my advertising class in high school >> and I was like, what does any what does a computer have to do with any of this? >> And the fact that I found myself asking that question and I went deeper and deeper and deeper, that’s when I knew I knew wanted what marketing and brand was. Um and then later on probably fast forward another seven eight years after that I became a recruiter. Um so I have back office recruiting experience. I understand the cyclical cycle of that the butts and the seats the high octane stress um of that and it was incredible training. It was great work. >> Y >> I realized I loved the people. I loved the people that were maybe mentoring me. Maybe it was the people that I was taking out to lunch and getting to know them and what they wanted in their careers. >> But the disconnect for me was I wasn’t motivated by, oh, hey, build this relationship and that relationship is still important, >> but then do the sales part of the job as well, right? Hey, try and put them in maybe into a role that they don’t maybe feel is exactly right for them right now, right? And that patience is something >> I wanted to have, but I wasn’t sometimes able to have that just because the nature of that role, right? and sales has changed so much since then. I think it’s gotten in a lot better in that way. Um, but that was just something I was like, this is a disconnect. And then I went to a sourcing job that was also creating content and Instagram work um at a company in Chicago called CCC Information Services. And that’s when I got to really do some recruitment, marketing, and employer brand. And that’s when I was like, “Oh, this is perfect. I get to know these people just how I did in my last job. I get to then tell their stories. M >> and I get to have this relationship that’s beyond this blog or this video. When I see them in the halls and we talk at lunch, we’re human to human here. >> So those two things happen for me and I’ve been doing that work now for almost 10 years next year. >> Sure. >> Yeah, that’s fascinating. And and a lot of our guests have gotten um you know the background of recruitment u social marketing, but it’s never like a clear linear pathway to an employer brand leader, right? like there is no curriculum for this. We didn’t go to school for this. But the transferable skills from related or tertiary work just sort of comes together and somebody’s like, “Oh, we need this.” >> Yeah. >> And you’re like, “I can do this.” And then you start creating your own lane. So >> you fall in love with the brand part of it. >> Uh after before the employee part of it. Yeah. The employer part of it. >> So now you bring both of those together. And then what is it that you learned in the process of developing let’s say from you know research uh you know crafting the brand by way of um data >> and then the creative side what are the things that you’ve learned as far as what makes a really good employee brand and might be work you’ve done or just work you’ve admired. >> Yeah. um everyone is trying to solve the same problem. Um >> which is >> uh it’s usually your it’s butts and seats right at the end of the day. That’s at least my been my experience a lot of the time. >> And that’s fair. >> But the story I’ve been trying to tell people is let’s tell people the truth. Let’s give them the context of the truth and let’s see if they want to sign up for this truth. >> Oh, that’s a very >> that’s like a life thing. >> Yeah. Listen, >> but and life is work is life, right? There’s no work life. There’s the life life is work and work is life. are intertwined with one another. >> Sure. >> So, that’s where I’ve been trying to go. Um, as much as I can, but sometimes it’s hard because you’re telling too much truth. >> Uh-huh. And then legal calls. >> I’ve never had that happen. Same. Never had that happen. Never had that. Marking’s maybe gotten mad in past. >> Sure. >> Um, >> but I want to stay on that for a second because I I find that fascinating. We we push a lot on transparency is the new authenticity. >> But I I’ve I’ve even evolved that thinking in the sense that transparency is really what you want people to know. You tell people what you want them to know versus >> curated >> vulnerability, >> which is being okay showcasing the soft underbelly, right? The the the the the vulnerable parts. And I think that’s what candidates particularly, but even I’ I’d even say more so existing employees want to be able to to feel comfortable saying and knowing that the company’s okay being clear about here are the here are our flaws, right? Here are the warts. >> And if you are okay with those, then you’re going to have an amazing experience. You might learn a lot. You’re going to have opportunities to grow and things like that. But it’s not sunshine and roses all the time. Why why aren’t we seeing more companies doing that when we know that’s what people actually want? >> I think it takes a lot of emotional intelligence >> to do something like that. Um I think scale also matters as well geography uh geographically like that matters a lot. >> Okay. >> We were able to do what you talked about right? Um me me I I was in IC as many of us are. Um, I was an IC and I I was able to do that work with my TA leadership team, with my chief people officer, um, with the chief marketing officer. We were able to do that in my last role because they believed in it because they knew the truth of it. Because when they came and signed up for it, they got the truth to them, right? And a lot of people said, “No, I actually don’t want that truth. That’s not my truth. That’s not what I want right now.” And that’s okay. But we said, “Hey, we’re going the other way of this is who we are.” And if you’re repelled so far as to say no, that’s actually okay. There’s no love lost there. There’s nothing wrong with that. I think so much of the time is like, “Oh, we got to find this this perfect person that fits and can amplify us, but do they want that in their current? >> Maybe they’ve already done that rodeo before, right? Everyone wants to build all over again all of the time at a certain pace, at a certain scale. So, we were actually able to do a lot of that and I was able to build toolkits for recruiting team to say, “Hey, like some of these the reviews that you’re seeing, they are valid in that person’s experience, but can I give you the context sometimes around why it’s like that?” That could be different for any company out there. Hey, this is how old of a company we are. Actually, not old at all. We’re just a baby, right? Um, I say that pretty often. I’m like, “You’re 5-year-old company. You’re 5 years old. >> I don’t I had consciousness at 5 years old, maybe.” Right? you do at five. >> Yeah. And we’re expecting everything to be figured out and we were vulnerable to say, “Hey, we don’t have it all figured out like you said, but we are trying to move our way towards that and we’re looking for people to help us figure that out along the way as well.” Right. People talk about culture champions and employer brand ambassadors like you need really good emotionally intelligent people to be there to sign up for the work >> and then that human side of it. Um, so I’m really proud that we were able to do that over the last almost 3 years I was there and I’m excited to do that again hopefully at another company and hopefully this just becomes everyone just starts doing this, right? >> Standard practice. >> I really hope so. Um, because that would make things a lot easier for everyone. >> So this is rich. So what did you notice about the the culture, right? So people coming in first day and they’re coming into this culture of like this is who we are, >> right? Flaws and all. we we welcome you in. Um, you have aligned and you you signed up for this. You’re cool with it. What did that do for the culture uh at at your former company? >> I think people weren’t as maybe surprised sometimes. >> Okay. >> And then as we started to build and and they got deeper and longer into their tenure, their 90 days, their six months, they’re like, “Oh you y’all weren’t lying. >> You weren’t lying. >> You weren’t lying.” And we’re like, “No, we weren’t.” Right. And then sometimes people then realize like oh I didn’t maybe this wasn’t it right still right because that happens right it’s the cycle of it and then that would happen then we’d have then it’d be like okay well and again this is this is a credit to the chief people officer that was there and the entire people organization of saying we need to change these things we need to do programmatic work like what is the root cause of these issues or the programs we can put in place with our DEI team with our benefits team with our total rewards with our TA team with our hiring managers. What can we do across the board? Because we are the first open door, right? We are welcoming people into this experience, into this home. And you want to ask them if they need a glass of water, ask them if they need something, take a seat, relax, right? You need to have thatospitable approach and we had that there. So, from when I got there to where we are now, I’m so incredibly proud of what we were able to do and it’s just going to keep getting better as the company continues to scale. All that to say that was done from 600 employees when I started to now 1500 employees from when I just uh had my last day. Um the company’s still doing incredible work and they’re going to grow and probably be closer to 2,000 by the end of the year. >> So um I hope I I want that to stay. I want that to be for again every company that exists, but it’s also not the reality of the situation. >> True. True. And I think that’s that’s kind of the the unspoken spoken amongst people who do the work that that we do. employer branding is that for all of our visionary ideas, um all of the clarity in which we want to articulate a message, we still have to work through organizational bureaucracies, >> um leadership, education and understanding about what we do, uh crossf functional understanding and um support of what we do. So, knowing some of these challenges, what would you say is the hardest part about being an employer brand leader? >> I’m going to go a little deep here. Um, >> it’s lonely. >> It’s lonely sometimes in its own ways. And that doesn’t mean where I was in the past it was lonely or the past the few jobs before that that it I inherently like was like no one’s helping me. I don’t mean it like that. I mean like the work we do is so intimate to what we know and we are >> doing so much with so many people in the organization so many conversations it’s a it’s a list right it’s a litany um of amount of individual we have to get to know to build relationships with to convince sometimes um and that can feel it’s like uh I told one of my I have a mentor um something we talked about sometimes was it’s lonely at the you know, um I love sports and I think about that in that context a lot in basketball, but it can feel like that no matter what your leveling is. And it can feel lonely sometimes cuz you’re the only one who knows all the context of why these decisions get made or don’t get made to do or don’t do something. That’s right. >> So, I think to me, if I’m going to get into it, it can feel like that sometimes. Um, and I’m not saying that like again I I had great team, great support, but I did feel like, man, who else can I go talk to at the company who’s exactly going to get it? And some people really do get it, but maybe they don’t know the work as much, right? And what can take there? Um, but I I felt incredibly supported while also being vulnerable in those organizations saying, “Hey, feeling a little like I don’t know where we’re going. Excuse me. Where are we going?” Right? And then soon as I say that, the vulnerability on my end, the vulnerability on their end, we were able to figure it out and we were great after that. >> So loneliness at the top. >> Mhm. >> Being in a space within an organization that sought you out for your expertise, right? Uh they knew they needed an employer brand, an EVP, all those things. But then you get there and you find that you have very little support in the sense of colleagues who understand what you do um are supportive of what you do in in the sense of like can actually provide guidance. Uh so where do you go for resources of support? >> Uh I I went I went to my TA leadership team you know they they understood what it was. We tried to learn together in the process on >> where does the organization want to go here? Um from there was going to marketing as well immediately that is a very important relationship um you will get there. >> Yeah. Um is incredibly important and again the context at every organization is always different but that was that and then for me I really found a lot of allyship with the uh DNI leader that was there. Um because I think for her in that time and space she went to school for it. she had worked in this field. Um, but she was at this company, you know, maybe a couple months before me at the same time. Um, so she was in this she was it felt like we were in kind of that, right? In our own ways and our own different highways, but kind of like going wrong in the same way and coming back to each other. Um, those three were probably the biggest one. the TA leadership, the senior director of TA, um the TA leadership team, the marketing organization, and then DE and I um were the people I I leaned on a ton um at that time. And as as it evolved and I got to build those relationships as individuals, but as the work I did, >> marketing became I I became part of the marketing team. I became a liazison with that team, with our internal comm’s team that hadn’t been built just yet, um with our culture communication strategist. Um, and then it just kept going on with DE and I as well, right? We got to build things and new processes together that helped shape EB, that helped shape DE and help the outcomes of the goals that we had. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I love there’s a couple of points I want to circle back to. So, the first one being that relationship between EB and marketing or comms, whatever the org setup is. >> And I promise we’re not going down the rabbit hole of EB verse comms. >> We’ll be here. stay out of that right but more so I think there’s an evolutionary understanding of how inter in inter intertwined both of these functions are employer brand being a very loud amplifier of culture in an organization uh brand or marketing or comms being the voice of the entire organization >> and I think those functions especially for uh marketing has a foundational understanding of what at least tactically what you’re doing, right? >> You don’t have to explain that to them. Yeah. Yeah. That’s >> I know that part. The other part the part that sort of gets muddied is when there’s this talent thing thrown into the mix and it’s like, but you’re not selling the product or our service. So, >> how revenue? >> How do you square this circle? Right. And that’s that kind of then lends itself to so where did you find the most uh I hate to use the corporate jargon term of synergy but alignment between yourself and marketing to where it became sort of this natural osmosis or organic relationship that you built. >> Something I learned at uh one of my previous jobs, Rocket Mortgage, it’s part of their culture. They call them the ISMS. Um and I know a bunch of EB people will go and look up their isms. Uh Rocket Mortgage culture iss when you guys go into Google. Um and they are their those are their values, their verbs, their actions. And one of the ones that they had um was it’s not about who is right, it’s about what is right. >> I like that. >> Not about who is right. >> I mean, we can apply that to a lot of things in life. Um I did started doing that with my wife after that, but we won’t get into that. I won’t bring that up. >> Tell me how that’s working out. >> Um I we should ask her. We’ll bring her on next time. Um but I I have that approach in the work that I do. I said, “Hey, this isn’t about you or me being right and us fighting for the same uh turf, and lack of a better term. This is about what is right for the company at this point in time, right? So, I care about followers. I care about engagement. I care about um those people funneling into our website, getting signups, being in a talent community, filling out a form for you. But moreover, I care about our mission as a company of eliminating barriers to mental health. >> That’s missionoriented. So not everyone has that with their company, right? I know your last uh um your last podcast um was about teada and they do pharmaceutical work. So I had a lot of understanding listening to that podcast cuz the mission is easier to sell in that way, right? But it’s not the case for everyone. So I know I had those two in my advantage and I said, “Hey, let’s do this together.” >> And then I started building programming after that of here’s employee advocacy. You want to build brand, let’s build brand together. This is going to help me. But it’s actually just a brand tool. It’s not just about talent recruiting. It can be. That’s where it came into, right? All these companies. That’s not what employee advocacy is though at the end of the day. You can’t just say, “Oh, we’re hiring every single day, >> two, three times a day from your your employees things, your uh LinkedIn networks. It gets really boring. It gets really stale. They need something beyond that.” And because of our mission, we’re able to give a lot more value to those people’s audiences and for them to grow their networks. Um, so that is what I kind of told them. Um, and then once there was an understanding of that, >> I started saying, I have an idea. What do we think? Do we have the time on the calendar? And it was a yes or a no or, uh, let’s delay it and maybe time it up differently. And we figured it out after that. Um, so I’m very lucky that I did that right out of the gate because it’s not always, it’s usually it’s not mo most of the time it’s not like that. So I the takeaway for me is keep the mission of the organization at the forefront of what you’re trying to do. This isn’t about egos. This isn’t about me getting my way or you getting yours. This is about what’s best for the company. So I love that. >> The other thing I wanted to circle uh back to was your relationship with DE and I. >> Uh so many moons ago I was touting that EB and DE and I were going to merge at some point, right? there would be indistinguishable um expressions between the de andi voice and the employer brand voice. Uh I think at over the past four years let’s say that became largely true when we started to see more communityfacing messaging around employer brand right where it wasn’t just the smattering of the Benaton rainbow colors of people on a career site there was real deep storytelling there was uh humanity given to uh the various communities and organizations that’s changed a bit >> Mhm. >> over the last few months. Um, where do you see that natural connection between DE and I and what are you projecting for the future of EB and De and I’s relationship? >> Yeah. What we were what we were able to do was you talked about how they kind of just like became part of each other. >> Um, and that is what we wanted to happen. We wanted them to be like two DNA helixes where like it’s this individual. It’s this thing, but it’s not there just to be there, right? >> This this is just part of who we are at the end of the day and this is how we’re deciding to show up. Not because it’s any form of potential tokenization. It’s not any form of, oh, we’re just doing this to be the stupidest word in the world. Woke. What? We’re all waking up. What? Like, come on, be better. Um um >> it was about it was about the mission. >> Yeah. >> It was about that and it was about giving people chances who have historically been discriminated against those communities, right? >> And that all just made sense and we didn’t have to have conversations about it. We figured out how to do it in the right ways. What was wrong? What was right? What was uh this is new? >> All of that. um in the future, in the near term, >> because of coming back to saying who I am right now, I’m going to be this no matter what. That’s not going to change with who I am. >> Um so for the near term, I’m going to be pushing that as much as I can, as much as that it just needs to be there. Like it’s just it’s a >> it’s a non-negotiable to use. Very corporaty jargon. Um you did you did synergy, I did non-negotiable, we got two out of the bingo card. We’re even. We’re even. >> Yeah. Two out of the bingo card. Yeah. We’re doing good though. >> We are. Um, we’re not doing too much with it. Um, and I think in the future it’ll be better, I hope. >> But I do think you’re going to see in 2020 you saw a lot of the world changing and be affected by what was happening in the United States. >> That’s right. >> And companies decided we’re not going to sit back. We’re going to do something. We don’t know what all the reasons for all the companies are. Right >> now, we have seen a lot change in the first 6 months since November, let’s call it. >> Sure. can’t say we know everyone’s reasons, but we we can maybe make a guess, right? I’m an educated guess there. Now, it’s who’s really showing up, right? I think that maybe I saw uh I didn’t get to read the article, so I’m not going to say I read it. I read the headline that the Marriott CEO maybe had come out and said, “Hey, we’re not moving away from this >> at all. We’re not going to do this. This doesn’t make sense for us in any type of reason.” You’re going to see people who are doing the right thing start to do the right thing a lot more too versus company maybe like Target. They’re in a weird spot too where they’re pissing everyone off frankly, right? They pissed everyone off a year ago with some stuff they did with Bud Light. Now they’re upsetting everyone and now the last 3 months their foot traffic is down, right? Cuz there’s been like a literal like, hey, we’re not going into the store to give them our money from a lot, you know, very for very good reasons. I don’t know what’s happening to their employer brand over there at all, but it’s I think I think you’re going to find out who’s real and who’s not. Um I think it’s interesting because a lot of the work forces that are affected by this and the people who are affected with from their employer brand are these historically discriminated against communities a lot of the time too. >> That’s what’s most messed up to me about all of it. That is what gets me actually upset and angry. And I’m going to take close my eyes and breathe in a little bit. >> Breathe out. >> That is the most frustrating part for me. Why? Like do do people not see? They don’t see it because it hasn’t most likely been their experience in their life, right? >> Yeah. >> That hasn’t been my experience in my livelihood either. But I can still again the the empathy, the vulnerability of like >> what what Yeah, we should do this. Of course, we not not just cuz like it’s just Yeah, let’s do it. >> Yeah. >> Let’s be better. Let’s be better, folks. Let’s grow up. >> Listen, I’m I’m with you. I’m with you. There was a there was a quote I heard recently from uh from an economist um who said the problem with capitalism is capitalism. >> Oh man. Yeah. So, so you know without going too deep into all of that, the fact is you know these companies whether it was 2020 or 2025 responded to the energy of the marketplace or at least their perceived >> perception of that energy of wherever they thought it was going and did they want to be on whatever side they chose. uh you know 2020 we saw a lot of companies choose to be on the side of social justice and DEI and a lot of big commitments financially whether they achieved those things structurally or systemically uh remains to be seen but the challenge is when you have a new shift and your company uh which the only obligation of a company is to remain viable to itself and its shareholders >> um they had to make those decisions. Point being, how do you how do you craft an employer brand when you’re at an organization? And I have clients who were in the headlines for rolling back dei commitments and now how do you go and sell the cultural story >> to a prospective candidate or to your existing employees who now feel uh you know sort of betrayed, right? So these are these are things that from an employer brand lens you have to now figure out because you can’t ignore the reality out in the marketplace especially if you are a steward of a brand. >> Yeah. >> It’s your job to be aware of what the perception of that brand is. >> Now how do you work in those constraints and find a way to say well you know what here’s the noise but here’s the reality and let’s find the blend between the two. >> Yeah you said you mentioned Shaker has clients that are experiencing that. you’re having conversations. Um, >> Oh, yeah. >> What’s the best conversation that’s been had about that that you you you’re a you’re able to share if you’re able to? >> Yeah. I mean, without putting any client names out there, I mean, I’ll simply say the most rich and robust conversations I think the most impactful that I’ve had are with Shaker employees who are on these accounts >> because, you know, there’s there’s questions about, well, you know, we’ve been asked to do X, Y, and Z or remove this or pull this campaign because of I mean, these are early days of 2025 where it was like nobody knew what was going on, what what can I do, what can’t I do? It was all confusion. So people just retreated. >> And I’ve got, you know, colleagues who are like, I really feel a way about having to even be a part of that. But I’m like, you have to remember that these are our clients, >> right? And so >> capitalism is capitalism. >> It’s the problem. Capitalism is capitalism. So, so on the one hand, we have to, you know, sort of separate our personal feelings from the work that we do, right? And I think that that’s >> kind of a universal thing. um because it it will tug at your humanity in some cases. I think the the what we’re starting to see now is a turn where people are like, okay, there’s there’s becoming a bit more clarity in terms of what the legal ramifications of doing X or not doing X or Y. Um, and so I’m starting to see more companies saying, you know what, okay, um, we’re clear on what we’re going to do now. And we’ve gotten direction from our internal legal and especially if you’re a government contractor, I think that’s even more clear at this point. But it’s case by case, right? And it’s like it really calls and I think even speaking to something you brought up earlier, it’s like what is the leadership going to do to set the tone for the culture of the organization? And that’s where that’s being called into question and we’re still in it. >> Yeah. And I have deep sympathy for the organizations that are wanting to do it, but also having to figure out internally with their audience of, hey, we want to do these things. We stand for these things >> so much, right? >> Cuz we did before before 6 months ago, we did. We didn’t think about we we didn’t think about it, but we didn’t want this this this outcome for this work in this type of way. We didn’t want that outcome at all. >> But we do have to respond to the nuance that is there. Um, and I have a lot of sympathy, and that’s where the lonely at the top can figure out. There’s a lot of DE and stewards, a lot of people team stewards, employee experience stewards, recruitment marketing stewards, TA stewards, right? Everyone across those teams, marketing stewards, product stewards, every across all those places that are like individually feel something, but then also while working there are like wait, why I came here is part of that ingredient. >> That’s right. >> Part of that DNA, right? Right. So, I have a lot of sympathy for the companies trying to figure that out in the best way possible cuz you it’s it’s so hard right now. Um cuz there’s a lot of strong feelings and rightfully so there should be. I appreciate the companies that are having those conversations internally with their audiences. Um and my my my previous companies doing that at at a very high level, you know, hosting AMAs, sending email communications out about things, hearing employees out about what what can be done and then being real, you know, internally um as well. So, shout out to all those people who are trying to do that work, too. >> Shouts out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, look, we got um there’s a there’s a debate uh heavy in the EB community of where does EB sit? >> Oh, this is always fun. >> Well, so I I want to I want to add some nuance to that. We’ve talked about how employer brand initially got its stage through talent acquisition. Mhm. >> There’s a case to be made that EB goes well beyond talent attraction, right? Talent engagement, talent retention, you name it. I want to I want to get your take on EB’s role in shaping culture. >> Um especially where there might be, how do I say, issues within the culture. what what role should or do you see EB playing um in culture shaping not just sort of culture expression or articulation >> EB for from in my experience EB can influence it >> it cannot beat it >> your EVP is not your culture >> I don’t think so >> that’s a bar folks that’s a >> if your two-page PDF is your culture you have a lot of other things you need to figure out >> that’s not first problem. >> Here’s your imagine you’re a candidate. We’ve all we’re all we all do this work. We we know a good job description. We see if it’s just the EVP and there’s nothing else. There’s no other nuance. >> What? >> Yeah. Next. >> So, it can influence it um in in right or wrong ways, right? But it is not the culture. Culture is a very very different thing that comes from >> we’ve all worked with we’ve all maybe not all of us, but some of us have >> we have experience with great leaders who get it and say this is the work. let’s figure out how to do the work together to build this >> and because we need to shape the EVP or we need to shape our values or we need to shape the storytelling >> or there’s people we just need to have a really strong culture because that’s just that’s what keeps people here at the end of the day. That’s what is right by each human of the 1500 or 200 people or 10,000 people that work here. That’s just the right thing to do. Um so I think it can influence it. I don’t think EB is the culture though. >> It’s a part of it. it amplifies it or it chooses not to amplify to your point of chosen transparency. >> There you go. >> Um, >> yeah, it in it’s an influence. >> I wouldn’t disagree. I I I I do believe uh that EB is a partner in culture, >> not a producer of it. So, we’re on the same page there. And I think that the the the nugget was you can’t hand over your culture on a document, right? Like that’s that’s not how culture works. It’s it’s lived. >> It’s an ethereal thing that you you know that we agree on, but you can’t necessarily document and ask somebody to follow it to the letter of the law, right? Culture is evolving. It’s shifting. It depends on leadership. There’s so many factors that shape culture, but there has to be some definitive things that are part of who you are at the core, right? Like your roots, >> the adjectives of the action, the motion you’re trying to take, >> right? Like >> every single day. Yeah. >> How do we talk to each other within the organization? How do we hold each other accountable? >> Uh how do we celebrate each other’s wins? Or how do we coach each other through challenges? Like how are we there for there’s so many things that you can’t put on paper, right? That you can just communicate orally, I think, and through action and modeling. >> Yeah. >> EB’s job, I think, is to be that lens capturing all of that and then showing people who aren’t a part of it, this is how we roll. >> If you if if you if you feel that, come on, come with us. We’re happy to have >> you think you can add more. You can give us something a little bit of different flavor. Let’s do it right. It’s not just this one thing. It shouldn’t be this one thing. >> Agreed. Challenge is that when you put it in TA, >> does it does it do you find that it sort of clamps that ability to be more encompassing of a broader culture if your if your first premise is talent attraction and nothing else? >> So, in my first role, yes, I had that. I was I was in the TA team. I was also doing sourcing as as I mentioned earlier. So it was part of function of my role. >> Yeah. Wow. >> So then it was really hard. Marketing marketing was like oh you’re you’re in HR. >> What are you talking about? >> Why are you why are you even in this meeting? >> Was your seuite the CHRO and this is 2016. So HR still had that brand and still sometimes has now today too. >> And then when I moved on after that it I was in the marketing organization where my most senior leader went to the up to the CMO. >> Okay. And then this most recent one, I was part of the TA leadership team, but I was talking to everyone all the time cuz I knew like, hey, I need to talk to everyone all of the time. >> So, it can sit in TA, but it’s you have to be very actionoriented. You have to be you have to liaz throughout. You have to be a diplomat really in certain ways. Um, that’s why it can probably feel lonely because you’re talking to so many different countries, so many different factions, so many people who have different motivating factors >> and you Yeah. and you’re trying to figure all of it out and find your your place in all this while motivating them. It never really went the other way. I will say they never really have to motivate me. I’m down. >> They have to try to Hey, here’s some ROI for you for EBT. >> What do you Okay, say last. Let’s go. I’m in. I’ve been waiting for this. Where were you last quarter? >> Um been all my life. >> I think it can sit there. What? Um I think it was one of the town when we met at Town Brand Alliance a few years ago. I think Brian was talking about how internal comms and EB and DNI and external comms and t it’s all within this giant blob. It’s nebulous. >> Um I think there’s that component that sticks into that. I I would actually say I think internal comms has a an even more it it also influences but it has even more power than EB does to influence culture sometimes >> cuz that is directly how you’re communicating with your people daily, weekly, multiple times a day. And I think >> that’s real. I I think it’s just we try to bucket each other all of the time because it’s easier in our brains, but like we all just got to work with each other all the damn time, right? >> It’s just easier that way because then you have so much nuance and context and then you don’t get upset and then you don’t get mad and then they understand you. Like it doesn’t need to be the way it’s been built. >> O you might have just changed somebody’s job description with that one right there, man. But but that’s the hard part, right? because you can see like I to your point I’ve never seen a team where there’s like EB leader uh internal comms leader, external comms leader, uh creative or social and like I’ve never seen a team where it brings all of the the necessary pieces like uh Voltron like and then brings like this this powerhouse together. They were always siloed trying to figure out how best to work with each other. I think that’s that might be the evolutionary move to bring those department pieces together as one team to go and do employer brand from all of the diff these different angles. It’s very much a hub and spoke model in that regard, but >> um I’ve never seen that done. I I want to see that. >> Yeah. >> Um I want to touch on on a couple more things before I know your time is valuable. Um and I really appreciate having you here. This is a good conversation. >> This is awesome, man. um activation, right? We’ve we’ve done the research. We built the brand. Now you got to tell people about it. There’s there used to be a time in a world in a world >> where where money flowed for activations >> and now I think everybody’s pretty much strapped to do more with less. Um but this this thing has to be brought to life and I want to get your take on um what do you think it takes for a really good activation to bring a brand from conceptual to creative to now distributed amongst the employee population in the world abroad. >> There has to be an intellectual honesty that no one knows who the hell we are. >> Oo, >> we have to say we all agree on that. >> Ego aside, >> yes, we all have to agree on that. We don’t no one knows who we are because maybe we’re two years old, >> okay? >> Or maybe we’ve only worked B2B this whole time, right? So they might know us because >> we build software for All State for car insurance. They use our software every day, but let’s make it so >> there’s something in their brains they can imagine themselves doing it. So doing that um bringing creative in very very early like I as there’s probably a theme throughout this 60 minutes of I’m all about go build those relationships right away. >> Yeah. >> Right. cuz it’s going to take time. You can’t force it. When you force a relationship, it usually doesn’t work out how you want it to. >> It’s kind of awkward. >> It’s weird. And you’re like, “You talking to me.” >> Usually laws against that, too. >> Yeah. Force people to like you. >> Yeah. Um Well, my mind’s going to a different place now. We’ll come back. We’ll come back. >> Um and we’re back. Um but doing that early on with creative with who are the stakeholders making the decisions >> who’s holding who’s got the who’s got the safe open who knows the combination to the moola >> what’s the money >> what are their motivators what have they been brought in to do as a seuite or a VP or an SVP and how do you fit into that that’s why I’ I’ve talked about employee advocacy earlier I love employee advocacy >> it’s just advocacy >> like it’s just brand building, engagement building, content making. It takes a lot. >> Oh yeah. >> But it helps so so much because you have you you have the ball uh the wall of books over here. Um people buy you was one of the books on the inspiration wall here. I haven’t read it, but >> you hear this in sales all the time. >> People want to work with people they like. >> People want to buy things from people they like. We’ve all had sales people that just keep hitting our line and you’re like, “Dude, >> someone you’re dating just keeps blowing you up cuz you haven’t responded in like 45 50 minutes or something like we just talk. We just like we just got off the app. What are you talking about?” >> That’s right. >> And then you have it’s just like that, right? People have to like you. Um and I think that’s an important part. So that activation piece at least >> I think is in the in the scale I’ve worked in, I think that is one lever that you can very easily pull. >> Sure. But build it earlier on for the right reasons. Just don’t build it for build it for one reason. Um and then scope and money, like you said, harder to come by being asked to do le um more with less. Hey, if you’re taking that away from me, and I had that last year, what are your expectations this year? >> Yeah, >> let’s ask the question. >> Sure. >> You can’t expect me to give like our what what what’s your stock investment portfolio doing? If you take a if you don’t put it, keep investing into it. What’s it actually going to be? >> Is it going to grow? >> Like I probably not. I don’t think that’s how compounding works. Again, you say it much more kinder, right? Um than me being a little snarky right now. But if you put it into that context, I think it can help a lot for people. Um and also like don’t I I try not to get mad anymore about it. I used to get really upset in my feelings early on in my career about this. It felt really personal. I’d be like, >> “Sure, >> hey, you don’t want to make that decision that you’re we’re you’re an adult. Okay, cool. just understand that it can’t come back. Like I when it comes back and you ask me why it’s not happening, I’m probably going to be like I think it’s cuz we got off that job board and we stopped maybe having ads or we let go of the designer for >> whatever or we stopped >> posting once twice a week for employer brand. Yeah. >> Oh, we got rid of that software for talent community. Oh, we don’t have video budget after our videos are 5 years old. >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. It’s presenting. Here’s what you say you want. >> Here’s what we need to get it done. >> If we can’t get what we need to get it done, then we have to change what you want. >> Yes. >> And it’s a very simple conversation, but nobody Thank you. Yes. >> Yeah. Nobody really wants to have that conversation because everybody wants what they want. And I get that. >> Yeah. >> Fine. >> Whole another conversation for a whole another podcast. >> Um, uh, last question. >> Okay. >> You chose a book off our inspiration wall. For those folks at home uh or wherever you’re listening uh we have an inspiration wall in the vision lab where our guests can choose an item that sticks out to them that calls them uh as inspiration and anit and do fashion picked a book. What book did if you want to hold it up for the for the audience for those seeing and let them know what you chose. >> This is the I actually never seen the hard book. I have the the small one that fits in your pocket. Um, >> but how to win friends and in influence uh people. This has been around >> iconic books 1900s >> 1936. Oh yeah. >> Wow. I actually did not know that. Yeah. Um >> built many a company. Iconic company by the way. >> Yeah. The lore for me um behind this one is that my uh my kaka means my uncle um in Gujarati. Um my kaka took me when I was 12 or 13 to a Barnes & Noble. >> Okay. and he was probably at least seven to 10 years older than me. He was in med immigrated here now now a doctor but was going into med school. He’s like this book has changed my life. >> Oh wow. >> He gave it to me. He bought it to me at that age and I still Yes. I still have that book. I’ll clip this in too. I still have that book at home and it’s uh it is it’s a smaller book so it sits at the top. It’s there. Now have I ever finished the book? >> No. I have not once finished I will admit to that. I’ve not once finished it, but I have read the first 25 pages of the book probably 10 to 15 times >> about the setting of the um the the guy who had robbery, the abduction that happened and the letter and how there was still sympathy and empathy in that moment. And I think um Dale Carnegie talks about that and that has always stuck with me when I’ve needed that reminder for myself, >> for my peers or the people in my life of like no matter what is going on, it does not mean this person is this way. Does that mean this is who they are? >> Um and that’s been extremely powerful for me. So that’s that’s why I chose it. I’d love to find out what happens next in the rest of it. >> I mean I think I think by the time people see this, you might have read a few more pages. I think I’ll probably pick it up today. >> This might have been the the call back. >> I have a flight tomorrow and I think I’m bring that another highlighter and everything. So, >> listen, I’m glad that we are able to help extend the journey that started so long ago. >> Yeah. Have you read this? >> I have. Okay. I have. Yeah. I mean, it’s it early in my my marketing days, it was really um you know, I’m soaking in so many breadcrumbs and trying to figure out how best to connect and all. I mean, between this and life books and spiritual books and all that, this is part of the library for me. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah. I’m excited to pick it up again. So, I got the final question, and this question is one that uh in true format, we have our guests uh ask a question or answer a question that was left by a former guest. >> I’m write this one down just so we get it right. >> Uh and then you’ll leave one for our next guest. Okay. >> The question that our last guest uh left for you is, what is the one thing that you don’t like about employer branding or talent attraction right now that you want to change for the better? Tik Tok. >> All right. Thanks. Thanks for joining us, folks. It was It was good. It was >> good. Um, >> say more. >> I think it is such a cool I love social. I grew up uh I remember the Let me not go into all that. It’s Tik Tok. Um, I think it is a necessary thing to be done. You need someone who knows it. You need someone who can talk to that audience. you needed someone to understand the 1 billion inside jokes that that exist across everyone’s algorithm, but somehow everyone like knows that and I’m just like, I’m on Instagram reels. I saw that like 3 weeks later, bro. >> Yeah. >> Um >> that is probably the one thing I I am not on it. I am on Instagram and I get my reels and I’m okay. I’m like, “Hey, my life is still great, babe.” My wife tells me all the time. She’s like, “I saw that like four weeks ago.” And I’m like, here’s like I wow. Oh my god. There’s trophies for getting let me put it on your wall here over here for you. And my cousins do that to me and they’re all about six, seven years younger. So I think it’s that. But I’ve seen some brands just do it really well. There’s so many brands that do it incredibly well um with employer brand in mind as well. Um it’s quick, it’s easy, it’s not super production based either. >> It’s a very day in the lifeish. It’s very real and I think that can help brands be very authentic in a truthful way. Um, so I think I need to start liking it because I think that is just going to become more and more of this world that we live in. Um, >> yeah. What do you how about how about for you? >> Well, you heard on kit here. I mean, he said Tik Tok is the future of employer branding and that would make it better. Uh, I think you might be an N of one on that one. No, I I don’t disagree. I love Tik Tok actually. That’s my primary before IG. Um just personal social surfing, but yeah. >> Um it does have more of a relaxed organic feel and it and the algorithm rewards more of the authentic contact content versus the overproduced. >> Um and I think that’s going to be a big hurdle for uh employer employers to be comfortable with being less produced. Mhm. >> Yeah. So, so yeah, >> non- sales people, feel free to get into my DMs about that. Sales people selling TikTok, please don’t come to my LinkedIn. I’m good. Don’t come. I’m good, man. >> So, uh, what question do you want to leave for our next guest? >> Oh. Um, this is I loved I love working with AI. It’s just right now it’s a tool. It’s probably going to take over my job in the next five to six years, maybe less. >> Deep breath. Um, >> but what we we know what chat GPT is. Um, I don’t know who you’re going to have on next. Um, >> but what is what’s the tool everyone should know about? Like we know what Claude A is. We know what um or Claude Claude AI is. Um, we know what chat is. There’s podcasting ones. There’s >> mimicking deep fakes for advertisements and stuff like that. But over >> what is that? You know, I think that’s the question I would ask them cuz I haven’t found that just yet that those conversations in a majority of the community and forums I’m in for EB. I know someone’s doing it though. I’m sure Shaker is thinking about how are they leveraging >> how are you leveraging it like AI? Think about like programmatic AI. >> AI >> like that would be so like programmatic is kind of AI in its own way. Um but what what’s that look like? Um >> okay. >> Yeah, that would be the question I have for them because I don’t know and I would love to learn and listen on the next episode. I love it. Well, I’m kid. Thank you, man. This has been amazing. I appreciate you taking the time and and connecting. >> Thank you for having me uh in in the studio. I’m glad I I love being in Chicago. >> Hey, man. >> If you’re ever uh in town, guys, come to the Shaker office. It’s over here in Oak Park. >> Vision Lab’s happening. >> Yeah, it’s awesome. This is cool. This is There’s so much work being done behind the scenes, too. Shouts out. >> Thank you guys so much for having me. I appreciate it. This was so much fun. There’s like three cameras here. I feel like I’m like a YouTube subscription star over here or something like that. So, >> we try to make it official, man. Yeah, this is awesome. Appreciate it so much, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.