Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.4 – Arielle Julie

I just think the industry like all of the people in this space, they just have to remember the human side of things versus the data side. So when we have partners in this world who are still showing up to these Michael Scott fairs and they’re like this is this gets us the numbers, this works. Fine, fair. But like hopefully you can retain those employees and they’re not just showing up because they need something now and then they’re secretly courting something that feels better on the back end and going to leave. With this economy, we know that as soon as it changes the shift, the great reshuffleling, Jesus Christ, like it’s >> oh, it’s coming. It’s coming. I need companies to understand that if you’re not putting like humanistic decisions and efforts and like features into your people, they’re not going to stay. Why would they? [Music] [Music] All right, everybody. We are back with another episode of Employer Branding Unfiltered. I’m your host, John Graham. And I I I got to tell you, so these kinds of relationships come by way of really dope people. And I am fortunate to have been introduced and connected to our next guest uh by a really amazing human being. Um shouts out to Raz for this one. Raj, you know who you are. Um, but I am I am honored and I am grateful to have finally amidst many of scheduling situations on both sides, mainly mine. Um, I have the incomparable Ariel Julie >> on the line. >> Love that. Now, let me live up to that. Love that. >> Look, I tell everybody I will go anywhere you want me to to do your intros. Like, just, you know, I don’t cost much. But yeah, look, welcome to the show. It’s so good to finally have you on. >> I’m excited for this conversation. This is great. >> Absolutely. So, first and foremost, I would love for you to tell the audience who you are and that’s personally and professionally and then how you are in this moment. >> So, who are you personally and professionally? >> So, who I am, I have a slightly linear journey career-wise. I always wanted to be in advertising and marketing. So, I’ll start there. So, you already know later. I’ll come back to that. >> So, you’re like five years old on the playground. You’re like, you know what? I’m going to brand and market this whole thing, this playground. >> Look, Melrose Place watching Melrose Place with my mother. I was like, I want to be in advertising. Was that appropriate? Who knows? But like, I did want to be in advertising. And I went to school. I studied advertising and marketing. I came out of school. I worked in ad agencies. I was on the account side. So I was never a designer but always like design adjacent. That’s how I like to describe myself. Project manager, account manager, program coordinator. Those were my roles in an agency. And then um I went to a few different agencies. I moved to California. I woke up one day in Michigan after school after undergrad. Had a job, a good job, lived at home, and I was like, I’m leaving. I’m going to go to California. My parents did not love that, but they were like, “Okay.” So, I drove out to California with friends. I lived with like five ballerinas. I was not a ballerina, but I was skinny, so I could pretend to be a ballerina. I benefited from living with the five ballerinas. And I had I was the only one with like a corporate job. So, I worked in agencies in San Diego, in San Francisco, and then I eventually got recruited to be a recruiter for designers in New York City. And so that was like the start. That was the change of everything really. And I fell in love with recruiting. Just like natural matchmaking, talking to people all the time, connecting the dots, hearing their stories. Now, I do have to say I am a recruiter for designers. So, the people I’m recruiting are genuinely interesting. And when we’re doing screens and we’re doing we’re talking about their backgrounds, it’s interesting and it’s relevant and I know this space. So, I don’t know if I would have been as great of a recruiter if I was just a general recruiter for everything, but I was like a subject matter expert on design. And so, I did that for 15 years. And towards the last five or six years of that, I started doing employer branding without even realizing it. So, I started putting together um what is who is this design or within this company? Why should you come work here? How do we get this story out there? I started putting events together like intimate bespoke dinners, inspiration series to get people to come hear about the company but not feel like it was a presentation of the company but just like maybe this is a little intimate art show and also come work here. So I started doing that. I loved it and that is how I got to where I am today. Like it was very line literal literal linear. It was also pretty organic and it felt good and it was something that I was super passionate about. So, um, all the growing pains were worth it. >> There’s so many places I want to revisit in this in this story nonlinear linear journey. This five ballerinas and billboard advertising. >> Look, >> and and passing for ballerina. So, what kind of perks did you get amongst the ballerinas? >> Oh, I’m going to be so specific about the perks. I got tickets to everything. So, I developed a love of actually the symphony, of going to the opera plays because the ballerinas are sometimes supporting characters in those pieces. So, I got free tickets to the arts. So, like I’m not saying I’m into the arts to pretend to be bougie. I’m literally into the arts because I got to go to lots of free um shows when I was young and didn’t have enough money to afford tickets to things. >> That’s so dope. Like some roommates could be just like the hookup at Wingstop or something. You got like like really good tickets to culturally enriching things. That’s >> Wow. >> Yes. And so now I’ve pushed my my kids into this path. And of course they’re young, so they don’t fully see it, but every day I’m like, I promise you’re going to be such a cool adult. Please just stick with this. You’re going to be so cool when you just whip out a piano at the dinner party. Like just stick with it. So yeah, that’s where we’re at. Speaking of that, and this is we’re so off topic and I love it because I told you we’ll go wherever the conversation takes us and I’m here for it. But to that point, I’m in the airport coming back from Chicago the other day, and this uh this gentleman who is I will assume he was a pilot based on the uniform he was wearing, sits down at a piano at one of those uh like wine and bar situations and he’s just playing and I’m like >> that I mean he was playing I Will Survive uh by Gloria Gainor and it just called up a crowd like >> and I’m like that’s not even his day job but he has that talent, >> right, to just sit down and play a piano in public with the confidence to do it >> and it just draws people. I was like that that is priceless. So >> that is it. That is it. I’m trying to I’m trying to create cool individuals. >> Yeah. Right. >> In the future, interesting people. >> So look, so so this winding pathway Yes. Uh leads you to employer branding or talent branding. And we’ll have that discussion in just a second. and >> you land at one of the coolest tech companies out there that literally help people find a home. Folks, we’re talking about Zillow. Um, but you’re doing this work in a space that is number one techoriented and you are bringing all of this this wealth of experience and passion for design and uh experience creation and things of that nature. But I heard the pathway to how you got to employer brand. But what was the point where you were like falling in love with it? >> Yeah. So that was probably a few companies ago. So I have been fortunate enough to work for some very cool companies. I’m very aware of that. And I think when I say, “Oh, I’m a good recruiter.” I’ve had people say, “Well, you’ve only worked at really great companies. Like maybe go work somewhere where it’s actually a challenge.” That is fair. I’m not. That is totally fair. I’ve worked at I do I I’ve worked at Pandora Radio. I worked at Uber. I worked at Slack, HBO Max before it launched when it was HBO Max. It’s coming back full circle and Pinterest and now Zillow, right? So, when I say that list of companies, it’s really obvious to connect the dots on like why I would be really excited at each of those companies to do what I do. But I think it was probably at Pinterest where I had a budget and I had the creativity to sit down with someone and just concept these events from scratch. Like this is what we want it to be. This is what we want it to feel like and then be able to go do it. Now before Pinterest, back at Uber, I was definitely like well what does our Instagram page look like? um where is there a hub that shows who the design team is so people can learn about them and get really excited about what they’re doing. How do we talk about all the projects the design team has to get people bought in before they even start interviewing? So that’s when I think I really started uh doing the things that are like employer brand talent brand adjacent like taking all those steps and then in my career even though I was still a recruiter I was taking on roles and kind of pre-negotiating people to give me that autonomy to keep doing that. So that’s more than just your regular recruiter. Now I’m like your talent adviser. I’m like your strategic partner. But I’m trying to build that into these roles that I take on so that I can do that because that’s what really excites me. And then I’m closing deals. So let her do it. If it’s closing deals and it’s bringing in people, why can’t she do this thing? Right. And that’s how >> stay out of her way, folks. >> Exactly. That’s how I got into it. And when I got asked to come to Zillow, it was literally like, you’ve been doing this. Please come do this over here. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It’s like, yes, >> of course. Yeah. >> Don’t twist my Don’t Don’t throw me a good time. Yeah, that’s >> So, so that’s that’s fantastic. And I think very rare. Uh you’ve gotten to work for a bunch of companies I’ve never heard of. Um and I think that uh you know, it it is awesome when you get to work for not only just really cool companies, but companies that value what you do and your talents and know that they need them. Right. Now, that’s not to say I didn’t have constant struggles to show ROI and value and make it make sense, right? So, so please don’t take that away from this. But, >> well, and here I was, Ariel, thinking that you had a flawless, you know, challengefree pathway to success. Like, silly me. So, so, so let’s talk about this. So, two things. One, you’re at these awesome companies. you do have um you know and I’ll assume just based on knowing you that you’re doing this work at a time where it is not well known what it is right >> right so you have to explain there’s a lot of education I’m assure >> how did you navigate that because by and large most of us are defining the path as we’re blazing it right so how did you navigate that of having to educate while also activate um at the same time >> yeah so I think finding the Right. Stakeholders is the key here. My stakeholders, the people who were like on my team and who also were advocating at those executive levels, those were designminded stakeholders. I was not going to someone who truly didn’t understand the value and then having to get them on board, which is a whole other hurdle in itself. I actually went the the easier route of let me get these design executives bought in. We’re all on the same page. And then those are the people who are at the table and in the room with the people who ultimately will say yes to the budget or make the decisions or prioritize this. >> So advocacy from people in the positions who can say yay or nay. >> Yeah. And that is an art uh as well as a science right because not first of all if you’re fortunate to work in an organization that appreciates the creativity and the art right versus being in some industries that are very much you know numbers driven you could be in the finance sector you could be in the healthc care or you know pharmaceutical uh you know uh sector where I was but um but even within those sectors there are people who who get it it’s just finding them right and that’s to work into itself. So, >> and hopefully they have a voice, right? Because sometimes those people don’t have a voice, they don’t have a platform. So, hopefully they do. >> That’s the balance, I think. And and that’s that’s the hard part to your point. They might get it but don’t have a voice or they have a voice but don’t get it. So, now you’ve got to >> Yeah. So, these are the dynamics, folks, that we deal with on a constant basis. But you have found your way through and I think uh why I was really excited about this conversation is you have a very specific expertise in uh experiential activation which uh I have people I have colleagues within Shaker who every time they hear me say experiential part of them dies and I love it only because and and the backstory is and and shouts out to them they know who they are. Um the rationale is I was a practitioner and a client of Shakers for years and the big experience to bring the brand to life was what I loved most about employer branding. >> Um all of the other stuff was really the the road to get to the activation, right? Like the research and the brand concepts and all that stuff. Cool. Well, now you got to bring it to life in a meaningful and impactful way that’s relevant to your culture. you have done some activations that I think are award worthy. Um, but I really Yeah. Yeah. Look, receive that. Um, I don’t know what it’s worth, but put that in the pocket for later. >> The the I would love to get into your thought process around experience. Um, and we we’ll get to like the mechanics of building the brands and all that stuff. That’s but but I think this is a space where unfortunately we don’t see it as much as I think we should as a standard practice. So take me through some of your favorite activations and and the ways in which you brought them to life. >> Yeah. So I’ll start by saying that one of the things I tell my team now is we don’t want it to feel like an episode of The Office. Period. I love The Office. love that cringeworthy like kind of humor that’s kind of like British, but >> we don’t want our events to feel like one of those episodes. And so I don’t have any formal training in experiential events, but I know what I want to feel when I’m at an event and I know what sticks with me. So one of the things we preach is we want it to be a really good time that people remember. And guess what? You can have those interview adjacent conversations later. You can have them as a followup. It doesn’t have to be uh not a loud fun party atmosphere for the sake of we need to be able to have these one-on-one conversations in the corner. I get that push back from recruiters and I get it. Yes. But also just have a great party so people remember, I had such a good time at Zillow. I met great people at Zillow who seem like they’re having a good time. I want to work there. That’s all we care about. I want to work there and that is not a careerfare Michael Scott type scenario, right? So, I I push up against that a lot. We threw a really great party a year ago in Mexico City and we just threw that party again this year, but we did it last April and it was with Next Play and and now I’m shouting out Next Play. Uh, but there’s a live artist doing a a painting and selling paintings. There’s a DJ. There are panel talks, there’s music, there’s food and live music separate from the DJ. There’s like an electric violinist. So much is going on. It’s an experience. You’re engaged. If you really need to step away and have a conversation with someone, you can do that. But if you don’t want to, let’s say you’re an introvert, you can just take it all in and be having a great time. And there’s enough happening that you don’t have to feel awkward. I really care about people not feeling awkward. I am an extrovert. I know everybody is not. So, it’s like, how do we make sure the introverts don’t feel awkward and f it up for everybody? Because if it’s a room full of introverts who are feeling awkward, we’re still not going to achieve our goals, right? So, like, it’s all about the atmosphere. I have women on my team who are my secret weapons. They know how to throw an event. They know how to get the vibe right. They know about the experience. And so, I’m lucky there. So, I’m not having to do this by myself. But when I think also back to Pinterest and we did these bespoke dinner, it was an inspiration series, but they were dinners. So we’d have about 20 people that we handpicked and sourced. We would have an artist come. That artist who did not work at Pinterest would just talk about their inspiration and it was a Q&A and it was a dinner and that’s it. It wasn’t a presentation of like this is why you should work at Pinterest. Naturally, everybody asked questions and then we were happy to answer that. But most the time people said, “Oh my god, I think I was just at an art show. This is great.” And that’s what I wanted. And then of course we converted many people from those events, right? And so that’s the experiential part that I lean on. Like this is what I want to experience. I want to be at a good party that I remember and then I want to follow up with someone and have a serious conversation later. Let’s do that later. >> Hey there. Quick pause before we jump back in. If you’re enjoying the conversation and want to hear more, head over to the Shaker podcast page at shaker.com where you can catch every episode from this season and seasons past. And more importantly, if what you’re hearing sparks ideas about your own EVP and employer brand, I’d love to connect. Just scroll down to the ready to work with John section, drop in your info, and we’ll get some time on the calendar so we can dream out loud together. Now, let’s get you back to your episode. Whoa. Whoa. Let me let me just process all of this. And I hope everybody on the other side really just heard the tunes that were dropped. If if you’re doing this right, it shouldn’t feel like you got recruited. It should feel like you just had an amazing experience that was memorable that that that tantalized and delighted. It tickled the imagination. It >> it it it tantalized the the the the senses. it like it’s it’s not about the recruiting will do itself, right? Your name is already on the door. They know who through the event. You don’t have to sell that. >> And I think that that is some that’s like not only the future that is I think should be the standard >> like recruitment. >> I know that it’s not but it should be. I agree. Like you should smile when you think about this thing that you went to, right? Like oh I had such a great time there. >> You weren’t there. Oh my god. you missed like an epic night. Like >> that’s that is something that I think every company should be chasing is like to be the event that if you missed it, people are looking at you like, “Oo, I feel bad.” >> I know. >> Yeah. >> Had to be there. And I want to also note that like for anyone listening, it doesn’t have to be an over-the-top experience to still be a really great like curated bespoke experience. It doesn’t have to always be like an electric violinist or a live painting, but it can be thoughtful. Like when we think about the gifts we give people, I just had a call this morning with a potential vendor. I always want to give something to someone that they want that maybe they just don’t want to spend their own money on. That’s the way I look at it. Like the best swag is the Air Tag that you didn’t have to buy that has a Zillow brand on it. or it’s the Stanley cup that you want, but you’re like, “Do I really want to spend $50 on a water bottle?” No, but I’ll take this one. Right? Those are the best pieces. And so, we think about our swag and our gifting, which we’re not allowed to gift, to be clear. But we think about our swag that way. >> And I can see that people also appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into the swag. >> Listen, I will I will just say right now, Shaker has has moved on from Stanley. Shouts out to We did Stanley for a while. While we are now on Oalas, >> this is the new one. This is the it one. >> I will get back onto a plane after exiting the plane and getting to the luggage check. If I left this on the plane, I will find a way back to it to get that bottle. That is priceless swag. So, I love that. I think that’s a level of thoughtfulness that that showcases that you are intent on being memorable without being creepy about it. Right. Like >> Right. Right. >> And and these are these are the recruiting events. So, do you what is your take on how to align that with let’s say a conference that’s going on or uh a recruitment expo? Like how do you stand how do you approach standing out when you’re in those design meetings and you’re think okay what what do we want people to feel or walk away with feeling? How do you then put that in proximity to the event? Are you on the booth space? Are you doing these things adjacent to the event? Like what’s your what’s your thought process there? So my answer is based on budget. How big of a budget do I have right now? If I don’t have a budget large enough to do a booth properly, and I say properly, right? Like we don’t want to show up with a table and just a tablecloth and a pop-up banner. That is not like let’s just not do that. If that’s what you can do and that’s all you can afford, let’s just do the opposite and let’s do something else. So, I would say if we’re budget conscious and we don’t have a lot of budget, we start to think about the subliminal uh ways of advertising. So, that’s the lanyards, that’s maybe at a conference, you’re in a hotel, you’re the key card, you are the coffee cart. Um, at a conference coming up later this year, we’re wrapping the DJ booth. I’m so excited about that, but we’re choosing not to do a big booth because that is outside of our budget for that event. So, it’s really like what is lasting, what’s tasteful, and then what fits your budget. What’s not tasteful is a tablecloth on a 6×6 and a pop-up banner. And sometimes that’s your only option. So, I’m not going to knock that if that’s all you could do. But, I would say you could probably do something different at the same conference that’s less Michael Scott if you put some thought into it. I’m always going to take it back to Michael Scott because I know everybody gets exactly what it is I’m trying to get at when I use that as the adjective. >> Fair. Fair. Yeah. No, you know, no disrespect to the tablecloth and the the table and so forth if that’s all you can do. Right. And I don’t want us to I don’t want anybody to mistake us for being. Right. >> Right. But even with a table and a tablecloth, there’s things that you can do that help you stand out and just, you know, not hoping that somebody stops by so they can take your pen or, you know, your your key fob, you know, swag giveaways. >> One of the other things I want to bring up is the co-branded events, which a lot of people overlook. So, um, the talent marketing board, we’re a part of that community and we spoke about this at the top of the year, what Zillow’s doing, what Zillow did in 2023, 2024, we’re going to keep doing it, is capitalize on the co-branded event. So, instead of thinking, I need X amount of budget to build this event from scratch, going in with another partner that makes sense, that’s aligned, and doing the event together. It will bring your cost down, but you’re also going to capitalize on their network. they’re going to capitalize on yours and it’s less of a we have to carry this all on our own. So that’s next play. When we uh brand with Next Play, we’re joining their event. And when there’s a conference happening, there’s a way for you to uh maybe be the official afterparty or the official dinner or the official lunch of that conference and then you still get to you get exposure to that network. You’re not having to source and build and get attendees from scratch. So, that’s something that we are doing a lot of. I think almost all of our events in 2025, unless it’s virtual, they’re all co-branded. We have found a lot of success with that. Um, and especially in the social media, like the the second layer of this, we find so much success in co-branding with another group and and us both having access to each other’s networks. >> That’s liquid gold. I think the the challenge well not the challenge the opportunity here is and and even if I’m hearing correctly partnering um with other brands where it makes sense. Love that. But what about partnering with those brands where it makes sense and it’s not related to a recruitment event. >> Yeah. So I have thoughts there. I want to go back really quickly and say >> yeah please. >> It doesn’t also have to be a brand. It can be an organization. Right. So we are also partnering We’re partnering with I’m going to do another shout out CTO like female CTO’s uh we partner with them and we are hosting or we have hosted their Seattle chapter event >> and all we had to do was kind of provide the space for that but now we get access to all the like super highlevel women in this chapter and they’re coming to Zillow and they’re having their chapter meeting and they’re able to meet our recruiters. So, we just turned that chapter meeting into a recruiting event by co-branding. >> That’s super smart. That’s super smart. We were at uh AfroTech last year and uh LinkedIn hosted like a day’s worth of workshops and uh events and then hosted dinner afterwards, but it was done in partnership with uh with one of their clients. And so, their office space became >> sort of the hub for that entire experience, which you can’t help but be like, well, damn, this is a really cool space. And awesome on them for hosting it. And then you start to think about what is it like to work here? And then right so it it really makes sense when you’re starting to leverage environment as well as brand recognition in partnership with an experience. And these are like ideas that are 30 years into the future by the way. So hurry up. >> And depending on how depending on how popular you are, you might have brands flocking to you to partner together or you don’t. and you have to do you have to do it from scratch. So, I’ll say we’re a little bit of both. Zillow is a household name for sure, but also there are partners we want to be with that we have to do a little bit of research and leg work and reach out to them and make the case on why it makes sense for us to be together. So, I’m going to give you a little bit of our secret sauce, but because Zillow is distributed workforce, which we call Cloud HQ, so you can work anywhere in the US, we can turn pretty much anything into a recruiting event because we’re like, want to come work in Cloud HQ? Wherever you travel, you can work here. Wherever your family moves, you can work here. So, we are lucky enough to turn anything into a recruiting event. And we love recruiting people when they’re least expecting it. And we love meeting them where they are. I’m doing this because not because it’s not true, but because it’s like our tag, like one of our internal things. We meet people where they are. >> Sure. >> And then tell them about the opportunities. >> I I I I would be remiss if I did not point out the wellplaced pun of Zillow as a household name. That was fire, right? >> Y’all, that’s the t-shirt right there. Look at that. >> We’re making strides. Um so so look I I also want to I also want to talk about um the recruitment events um today that I’m seeing um and I you know I won’t call any specific conference out right the the conference model I’m starting to see a pullback on the investment of that booth space that right because you’re competing with companies that are spending hundreds and thousands of dollars to create these massive structures to be the center right but they’re already going to get the line around the the the expo floor to for an interview, right? >> What I’m really starting to see is these offsite activations in the evening, whether it’s, you know, you’re getting uh the Eventbrite tickets to go to whatever hosted happy hour or um you know, rooftop with ex so and so, right? So it’s um which I think become the better place to engage in conversations about the organization in a more relaxed environment versus >> you know standing in these lines and feeling like cattle just getting driven up >> and you have a timer like you can’t have an organic conversation that’s three minutes long. I mean you could but like it’s basically speed dating and we know how speed dating turns out now. you have to remember everybody you you met in the speed date scenario, right? So, >> so let’s be honest, right? Those scenarios are really about volume of getting people into your CRM or ATS. And that way you can go back and you say, “Well, look, we got this many people to follow up with, which is the ROI drive driver for qu uh quantity, not necessarily quality.” Not, >> you know, not knocking anybody who does that, but the point is >> you can have a better quality conversation, I think, in an environment where you’re curating an experience. That being the case though, how do you go back and showcase the, you know, justification for the spend or the ROI? >> Yeah. So, we’re fortunate enough at Zillow to have a few sourcers dedicated to our events. That’s a key. So that means there are two people who make a point to look at all of the leads that come in from our events, pull from them, get them in front of hiring managers and make sure there are the right matches. And then we also always bring uh recruiters to all of our events. So those conversations can happen there. But in terms of the ROI, so industry knowledge or industrywide, I still think of a cost per hire at $35,000, a cost per hire. And then we’re also in Mexico, so I think about that at $25,000 per hire. So in my mind, when I’m doing a bit of AB testing and I’m playing around with a partnership, I’m always willing to try something new. If it’s around that $30,000 mark, right? Because then it’s like, well, can I get a higher? Can I get one higher out of this? Then it’s worth it. And if I can’t, then we learned a lesson. AB testing. And we’ve been really fortunate to have a lot of ROI come out of some of our lower cost or lower budgeted events which makes up for some of the bigger budgets that are all about the brand awareness and maybe you don’t get as many hires out. So my approach is really telling my leadership team, we’re always in AB testing mode and this is the amount of money I’m comfortable with using to test. Let’s get on the same page with that. Are you also comfortable with me using 20 to $30,000 to try out a new partnership? Yes. Okay. This is what we’re going to do. We have put scorecards in place for all of our partners in our events each year. So, at the end of the year, we’re ranking these partners based on how easy it was to work with them, how much, you know, brand awareness we got out of it, how many hires, obviously, but we’re ranking who we should continue to work with and who maybe we just move on. That was an AB test. We’re we’re going to try someone new next year. And my leaders seem happy. So, that’s all I’ll say. We need leadership to be happy. They control the budgets. They seem happy, but also I think they realize we’re being really thoughtful. We’re not just throwing money around. We’re not just like, “Oh, we have to be here. Whatever it costs, we’re going to do that to get here.” No, we’re being really, really intentional on this is the amount of money that we know we’re okay to spend because this is pretty much what a higher cost and this would make it worth it. >> Yeah. So, I love all of that. I And even the KPIs, right? It’s um it’s critical to identify what are the keys to success and how are you measuring them. I think um I would love to know as we talk about you know some of these ways to creatively activate to attract talent. Let’s talk about the other side of this for the internal the existing uh employees right and you can span across your your your your resume here. What have you seen as great activators of the employer brand for the internal employee? Right? The ones who you have to ensure are still in love with the brand that they are a part of uh shaping every day. >> How have you applied those experiences or those means of communicating brand through um you know tactical or tangible uh approaches? >> Yeah. So we have a few programs that we’ve put together to give visibility whether it’s internal inperson or through social influence to give visibility to those employees who want it. So I will say this if a if an employee doesn’t care about internal visibility they don’t care about social media influence or followers or likes. I don’t know how to reach them. But the people who do care about that, which is mostly everybody else, we have platforms and we have programs that we call the Zfluencer program. So it’s getting our internal employees to activate to share their experiences online. We’ll do a contest. We bring those employees with us on the road. So that in itself is a a non-financial benefit and all expenses paid trip to South by Southwest to be in our booth and talk about our benefits, right? an all expenses paid trip to LA or Atlanta or New York to talk about our benefits all day and to help recruit other people and tell your story. And then if we recruited you from an event, we absolutely want you to come to another event and tell that story of what it was like to be at the event, to go through the interview process, and then now you’re here at Zillow. So, I would say those are some of the ways we can incentivize the employees who are who are with us. Um, and then like I said, if they’re a budding influencer or they care about that, there’s tons of platforms for that. We do a lot of user generated content and thankfully people raise their hands to be a part of that. We don’t have to like force anybody to do it. But if that’s if that’s something that’s attractive, that exists too. advocacy, employee advocacy, and and I think it’s a it’s a big topic right now, and there’s some really cool uh advances being made in that space from a technology standpoint. Um, but I love specifically the incentives that are coming with advocacy because nobody wants to just do anything, right? Because, you know, you have to have some level of, you know, uh, incentive attached to it. But I love the idea of giving them, you know, more than just a social media platform to share their story, right? And that’s that’s I think pretty standard. Get some really good content, storytelling, fine. >> But bringing them to specific events that otherwise they wouldn’t be at. Oh my god. Like that’s >> that’s a no-brainer, but not one that I >> But people don’t always connect the dots. Agreed. They don’t connect the dots, right? Let me tell you this. I have people at the company and I think about this all the time. Like, okay, this this man is going to come to Southby. He’s going to stand here. He’s going to work this booth all day. What else can we give him that might not be, you know, a financial, it might not be a bonus or an add to his salary, but that shows him we appreciate him and we’re valuing his time. I think about that all the time. And then we try to do those things. So, we have free ways of showing our appreci appreciation. That’s karma. But then I also can say, you know, let us take you for a meal. You know, there are things we can do. And sometimes if the the person’s local to the city since we’re all over the country, it’s bring your partner to this thing, right? So that’s a benefit to your partner for your job. And I know that goes a long way in a lot of relationships. So >> I mean the the amount of >> brand goodwill that creates right just from you know you can you can do recognition you can do you know praise and things like that but actually giving somebody an opportunity to be an ambassador in real space and time and oh by the way bring your family into it as well. >> Like how how much harder are you going to run through brick walls for this company right? like like straight up cuz you can say you value me but no you you showed me by bringing me here I’m telling people my story so it’s not a stretch >> right >> like that like these are the easy things that I think get >> easy they’re so easy and they’re so overlooked and I don’t understand how so when I have these conversations sometimes I have to change my tone because I’m I’m talking from a place of like how do you not see this like let me scale it back in and let me walk you through it, but like this is obvious. >> It is. So, I look, there’s so many places we could go with this. I I want to I want to make sure that we cover this because you in your role currently um and I obviously you didn’t shape the title, but you are uh talent brand, not employer brand. >> I think that’s very intentional. And there’s always this discussion within the, you know, the EB space, um, EBTB space, uh, of which is it, right? Is it employer branding or is it talent branding? And so I want I want to get your take on that and weigh in on that. >> I did not get this answer approved by my comm’s team. So just throwing that out there. >> You and I, this is unfiltered, not approved. >> Not a representative. But the way I see it is talent meaning the talent that we’re attracting versus the employees that are already existing that we represent. We do have teams at Zillow who focus solely on uh employees and we call that talent success versus talent attraction. So I think we are talent brand because our goal is really >> this is why you should work here and that’s our whole message and it’s the foundation of everything we do all the channels we’re in >> and then there’s a separate team that’s making sure that people internally employees you know they feel that that value proposition that value promise that’s not our team so I do think our team has the right title um you can say we’re employer brand because we want to be seen as an employer of choice so sure but we are like talent attraction >> very much so. >> Yeah. And and and I like that there’s a definitive line drawn in the st sand there, right? Like because I think a lot of times employer branders get uh tasked with being representative of all things attraction, engagement, and retention, right? Which which I think >> we don’t have retention at all. That’s not on us. >> Right. We’ll say that. and and and I think you’re you’re you’re you’re pointing out a really good um good nugget here is that depending on how the organization is set up, some people have you know talent acquisition as a function and then you have talent development which is you know the external and then the internal >> I think employer brand has the the breadth of being able to encompass all of that because it’s really what is the uh the um creative or cultural expression of the employee experience, right? Packaged and consistently messaged and so forth that could be applicable to everything from talent acquisition to uh uh total rewards to uh employee development and experience to whatever. Um but I love that you you only get to focus on talent attraction which doesn’t muddy the water. So there’s no you know competition sandbox side eyes like all like why are you in my space? Although >> now I did not say that but I will keep nodding and I will keep nodding. >> I stopped myself before I jumped off the ledge with no parachute. So >> again not a challengefree line nonlinear experience. So I I I will spare us the rabbit hole of tell me about your relationship with comms. >> Oh yes let’s spare >> the therapy session for another podcast. But but I will say that your model or the way that your or is structured I think gives you really good clarity and your your your colleagues across aisles very good clarity on what you’re what you’re tasked on. So um I wonder that being the case where do you see employer brand flourishing or even talent brand in the broader context not just in the attraction space where do you see it flourishing within an org structure >> because some sits in TA right >> so we sit in we sit under well we’re not technically under TA but we are definitely in the same family right so we sit under recruiting enablement We technically sit under recruiting enablement and recruiting enablement, talent acquisition, and engage in engagement and belonging all report up to Ros who you mentioned earlier. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. So, we’re all in the same family for sure. Um >> I like where we sit. I I really like where we sit. I’ll say that. We work really well with our comm’s partners. We work well with our engagement and belonging partners. We work well with our like product tech partners. um our PR partners like you know a lot of people own different channels that we definitely have to work together to make sure we can push our content out on those channels. >> Sure. >> And I think we’re in the right place. I’ll say that. I’ve been at other companies where I feel like talent brand is usually always tied to recruiting which I think it should be because those are our KPIs are so closely tied to recruiting KPIs. So it it does make sense. It’s our we’re not just about brand awareness and that’s like actually my struggle when I want to do things that are solely for brand awareness. I struggle to get buy in for that. So then I basically have to have some RO a higher in there and then it could still be this brand awareness thing but we got lucky and we we like made sure that we set it up so we could get a higher out of it. It’s really hard to just do pure brand awareness >> and let’s just let those dollars fly and hope for the best. Like, yeah, that’s hard. >> Yeah, I you know, I I like to live in the fantasy world where we could just do brand awareness plays and spend absorbent amounts of money to make sure people will know. But you’re right, it and that’s that’s the internal conflict within me. I’m trying to remain Switzerland here, but >> it’s if it’s going to be tied to a butt and seat, >> then yes, that’s that’s recruitment owned and it should be. >> But if you’re if nobody knows who you are, then you have to do certain things to become visible to your intended. >> Absolutely. >> So, and that doesn’t come with a hire on the back end, right? That’s that’s a different set of metrics. >> And I think that’s where it’s getting that’s where the the consistent push back is I think across wherever industry or uh or organization is. If you put it into a talent acquisition function, that is employer brand into a talent acquisition function or under that umbrella, then you’re always going to be saddled with recruitment outcomes as your ROI. >> And I think that limits the potential of what EB could do for an organization when there’s so much more from the internal employee experience, the candidate experience, the awareness. Right? So, I don’t know. uh off boxes. >> I think we’re saying the same things. What I think from the outside is that you essentially need a team and not a team in talent brand, but like you need your company, every person there to be on the same page with your goals and as soon as a new person comes in, they throw that off, right? But as long as it’s the same group of people, everybody can agree, we’re in this space for brand awareness. We’re doing this for brand awareness. We’re on the same page. And then a new person starts and they’re like, “We spent this much money last year and we only got one hire. Does that make sense?” So then we start all over again with getting everybody on the same page. That is exhausting. I know that’s never going to change, but that to me is is the disconnect. It’s like everyone has to be aligned on why we’re doing what we’re doing. And every time there’s a personnel change, we start over on getting aligned. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don’t think you’re wrong. I think it will be a continuous cycle of that um when new regimes come in and question, right? And that’s that’s fine. I do think and I’ve started to see a bit more of this in some of our our guests not sitting in in TA, right? They’re sitting in either marketing or comms >> where the brand concept and branding concept is more readily accessible. So, it’s no question. Okay. I I get the branding tactics you’re using. I understand how it supports uh our commercial or consumer brand, right? And we’re leveraging deeper pockets from a a budget standpoint. >> When you when you tie it to talent as an outcome and even if it sits in in the comm’s or marketing function, then talent becomes a client of that work, right? So, we’re helping recruiters tell a better story, a more cohesive and consistent story with a visuals that support that and experiences that support that rather than trying to hire based off of this work, right? Like that’s that is my vision. I think the future of this goes to employer brand or talent brand sitting in a commarketing function. And by the way, folks, I have always been team TA because that’s where I started and that’s where it lived for me. And I’m like, oh, this should be owned by TA. it and then we evolve and grow and that’s that’s what we’re supposed to do. So, >> so in a perfect world maybe there’s >> there’s a team and they’re all allies but they’re secret and they’re dispersed in all the different groups. But because they’re allies and they’re on the same team, then everybody like works cohesively together for the same goals without it having to be this thing that’s like stated or carved out, right? like having your allies in the different orgs because so many things that we do there’s a woman on my team I keep referencing her my secret weapon Adrian she comes from that experiential masters of hospitality brand world and she brings these connections and these connections are so beneficial to our marketing and our brand team so we are often doing things that are super beneficial to the other orgs for sure >> I love it >> I want to see that world one day I can dream We can dream. This is good. This is good. All right. So, so speaking of that, a world one day. Where do you see this work going? What’s what’s your what’s your view of the future? If you could peek around corners and be down the street corner, where where’s where’s this going? >> So, my tactical view for myself is I really want to I love AB testing, but I want to have kind of it figured out on the partners that are the most impactful for us and for Zillow. I would love for 2026 or 2027 to be us doing the things we know work and doing them even better and more curated and more chic and refined. That’s my personal me goal at Zillow. But overall, I just think the industry, like all of the people in this space, they just have to remember the human side of things versus the data side. Now, I’m not a data person. I work very hard to be a data person, but I am not a data person. So I understand when people are really excited about data and that data is at the root of all the decisions that need to be made. Get it, get it. >> But I think when we talk about how to attract people to our companies and want them to stay, how we treat them, how we incentivize them, we have to think about the human side and what we how we want to be treated and what would be great for us versus just like the data. So >> when we have partners in this world who are still showing up to these Michael Scott fairs and they’re like this is this gets us the numbers this works fine fair but like hopefully you can retain those employees and they’re not just showing up because they need something now and then they’re secretly courting something that feels better on the back end and going to leave because we’re not tasked with retention. And I already said that, but we know with this economy, we know that as soon as it changes, the shift, the great reshuffleling, Jesus Christ, like it’s >> oh my, it’s coming. It’s coming. Like, it’s really coming. And I need companies to understand that if you’re not putting like humanistic decisions and efforts and like features into your people, they’re not going to stay. Why would they? They’re not gonna stay. Look, look, we are we are huge fans of humanity practice at at at Shaker and and on this podcast and I think you you hit No, you didn’t hit the nail on the head. I’m I’m removing the violence from the language. You you aptly called out the fact that if you’re not making human- centered decisions in even how you attract, then your retention strategy better be solid because you are creating >> and that’s going to cost you. So, if you don’t make those decisions on the front end, then you’re just going to have to pay a ton of money to keep all of these people on the back end. >> It’s deferred cost, right? Whatever you’re saving in acquisition, you are paying in retention and rehiring. So, yeah. And and and I think also the the talent market is demanding more human centricity, right? Um and I and I’ve I’ve often told clients like stop striving to be the employer of choice. You should strive to be the culture of choice, right? Because at the end of the day, that experience is what’s going to shape not only will will they stay, but what is that brand message going to be when they have a horrible experience? >> And that culture bleeds through. So, when we’re at events, so many people tell us like, “All of you seem like you really like each other. You work really well together. You’re laughing. You’re hanging out. I see you like going to a second location together because we enjoy each other’s company and we like what we do and we work well together, right? So, if you don’t have a good culture and people can’t stand to be there and they’re looking at their watch and they’re just doing it for X, that comes across as so obvious. >> It really does. It really does. And you can tell you can tell it’s like, you know, they are representative of the culture when they’re in these spaces and people are watching that. Like do you actually like each other or you just here because you had to be? Right. >> Right. Right. >> So I love it. So one one thing uh and we’re going to wrap up soon here, but um transparency versus vulnerability. >> Oo. >> So we’re we’re going to get deep and philosophical before. >> Okay, let’s do it. >> So So one of the things that I’ve often said uh and we believe was that transparency is the new authenticity, right? There was a whole wave of authenticity and really heartstring heartfelt creative and visuals and you know all of that stuff fine but transparency and you know being more open about what you share right telling telling people more so about what they’re about to experience or what the culture is like um started to make a push however what I believe is that evolution to vulnerability right this being comfortable with the flaws right being open about the flaws and being >> forthright right So to to give people that experience, how is how have you approached that in your practice? I won’t put this on the company, but how have you approached this notion of um showcasing who you are as an organizational culture, flaws and all? And then what kind of resistance or support have you gotten from leadership and taking that approach? >> Oh, I let me answer the first part of that because I have an answer for the first part. So, when we talk about transparency, >> I don’t often like to tie things back to kids, but when you are a new parent and you’re reading all the books on um how to best raise a baby and keep a baby uh feeling good and not anxious, it’s always about transparency and routine. Like a a baby can’t tell time. They don’t know what’s happening next. But if you continue to do the same things in order, then they get comfortable with I know I’m going to wake up. You’re going to change my diaper. and then I’m gonna eat. And they don’t have to be anxious or worried or fidgety because they don’t know what’s coming next. I think that applies to everyone, right? Transparency puts us at ease. Even if we don’t like what we’re hearing, we know what’s coming next. We know what to expect. So, I’ve always led through transparency. And what’s really funny about this is I’m a very open person. And then there are the things that I can’t be open about because HR is like, “Nope.” So then you have this super open person who all of a sudden is like and that’s all I’ll say. And I’m like just read between the lines. This is it. This is all you’re going to get. Right? But I think transparency builds trust. People trust me. Strangers trust me. That’s my superpower. Strangers just come up to me and tell me things. They trust me. But being transparent um will retain people, right? even if they’re unhappy, if they feel like they know what’s going on and what to expect, they will still ride for you and they’ll stay. Now, the vulnerability is, I think, how you make people feel comfortable, right? So, when you are super open about the mistakes you made, what’s going on in your life, even if it’s not pretty. Um, so for example, I had my wisdom teeth pulled and I was still and I w I got put under. I was very excited about this. I had never been put under for it and it was amazing. 15 minutes later, my wisdom teeth are out. I was like, “This is it. Everything needs to be me getting put under and then I’m out and it’s done.” But I sent pictures while I was still doozy to my team. And my husband’s like, “You really sent those pictures to your team.” And I’m like, “Why not?” Like everybody enjoyed it. It was really funny. It’s not Instagram pretty, but like it just builds that like, you know, that that you can be whoever you are. You don’t have to be perfect. I know that there are leaders who lead from a place of like, I want you to show up polished and buttoned up. I want you to have it together. I want you to be prepared. Yes, Ann, that’s great. But if you let people show up exactly who they are, how they are, they’re just going to be more comfortable. And I think that’s how you retain people. That’s how you get people to ride for you is when you just let them be. Now, that doesn’t mean let them get away with stuff, but it doesn’t mean you’re holding them to this like impossible standard because none of us can be polished and prepared all the time. >> That’s the vulnerability part, right? Like sharing what’s really going on, letting people share, not making them feel bad when they overshare and it’s awkward. Just let it ride. Figure out what your face is going to look like and just ride through that awkward moment. I think that’s how you keep people like forever. And so the way I think that shows up at events is like we just have real conversations with people when they’re like, “How do you like being at Zillow?” We’re like, “I love this, this, and this.” Now, if they ask us something real specific about what’s not working, we can finesse it. We can be very PC about it, but we’re not going to just be um toxically positive about it and act like it doesn’t exist. I think that goes a long way when you’re meeting people because everybody knows every company has their issues. So, >> right. >> So, so if you’re going to stand here and tell me that everything’s perfect and there are no issues, then I don’t know if I actually want to be there for that cuz that’s just not true. >> And yet, we still find so many companies doing just that. >> Look, there are companies who feel like there are companies who feel like transparency is not good, and they won’t say that because that’s not the right thing to say, but they don’t want to be transparent. Well, not only will they not be transparent, because if I’m just shaping it, transparency is me telling you what I want you to know. >> Yeah. >> Vulnerability is me telling you what you need to know. And I think there’s there’s this there’s this I don’t want to blame legal. Legal’s job is to mitigate risk, >> but we do blame legal for everything. >> Well, you know, >> we’re like, you know, you can get sued. >> I mean, you know, you can get that to mitigate risk. And I don’t knock them. that is what they there to do. But I wonder is there a risk in being vulnerable vulnerable about who you are as an organization if that’s who you are? Like if everybody already knows that’s who you are, is it really a risk in you just leaning into it and owning it? >> Yeah. >> Because I think you could save a lot of people a lot of time, headaches, and heartache. Hell, maybe even some lawsuits if if they never even applied because they’re like, you know what, I don’t want to work in that culture. >> Absolutely. No knock to them, but the people who love that, >> awesome. That’s just not my jam. >> So, I’m going to give a shout out to our brand team right now because they are working on a project and they constantly pull in my team to make sure this messaging that we’re putting together. Can you use this on the front lines? And often I’m like, no, I cannot use that messaging. That’s not accurate or I can’t phrase it that way. That’s not going to fly. And they have taken that feedback and they’ve gone back and changed things. so that we can all be in alignment on uh the brand message, but then also the frontline message, the the message that’s at these events. And like that’s a big shout out to them because it’s been great. And because they’re not TA and they don’t have that TA hat, some of these things are a huge miss. I’m like absolutely I can’t say that. I will not say that. No, that implies the wrong thing or that sets up the wrong expectations. Then you’re going to have people joining and they’re going to be really upset. But we’ve been able to work through that stuff and I appreciate that that they’re like taking to heart our feedback. >> That’s tremendous. Again, this sounds like an amazing place to work. >> Look, me and my subliminal recruiting, right? >> This is this is >> I know what I’m doing. >> This is CIA level, folks. This is this is next level. Planting planting the suggestion deep into your subconscious. >> That’s right. >> This is great. Listen, Ariel, thank you uh for I feel like We just started the conversation. There’s so much more I want to talk to you about. So, uh, can I have you back on at some point? >> Part two. Yes. Absolutely. >> I’m here for it. >> Absolutely. >> I would love I would love love love this is something different, something a little new. I would love for you to leave us with a quote that maybe you live by that you apply to your apply to your your your work daily or just who you are as a person. >> Yeah. I so on my side hustle is that I love helping people prep for interviews and negotiate offers. Look, I’m not even doing a plug for myself, but I just love it. I love it so much. And so I love that I can have people come to me, be vulnerable with me, share their wants, and then I’m helping them like craft the emails and the wording to get more money. And it works literally, it’s like a 100% of the time if you do what I say, I will always get you more money. But but the quote that I have on my site that I love is that you have to ask for what you want or you have to settle for what is offered. And I just love I live by that. I ask for whatever I want. I am not afraid of no. And I think that is really like a skill that a a mentor 20 years ago gave me is just not to be afraid to hear no so that you can always ask for what you want. Worst case scenario, they say no. But then you don’t have to settle for what’s being handed to you. You kind of have a say. You have agency in that. That is my quote. I love that quote. I live by that. >> Ask for what you want or settle for what they offer. Bars. Folks, this is this has been a uh wisdom and gemfilled hour worth of conversation that if I had to put a dollar value on it, I would be uh I would be out of zeros and commas because it is priceless. So, thank you Ariel for for gracing us with your time and your your your expertise. Uh I can’t wait to see this one and I really hope that uh our audiences get the full value of this. So, anywhere they can uh connect with you? >> Uh LinkedIn is the best way. >> Okay. Yeah, we’ll make sure we plug that into >> I should be the only Ariel Julie on LinkedIn, >> I think. So, I think so. Uh well, fantastic. Well, look, stay safe, be well, continue to be an amazing uh beacon uh for the work that we do. I appreciate you, friend. [Music] [Music]