Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.3 – Claire De Souza

Before COVID, if you were a big brand, you had this arrogance. Oh, we’re big enough. You’re going to come and work for us. We don’t care. Now, it’s like, how dare you treat me like that? That interview was terrible. They call out the hiring manager on LinkedIn. They call out the brand. And that’s a really scary environment to live in. And rather than actually embrace it, a lot of corporate comms teams will go, “No, you can’t speak. You can’t do this.” Then they’re almost saying to their employees, “We don’t trust you to speak. We don’t trust you to do half of these things.” And so the employees will do it anyway like without permission. They won’t even seek forgiveness because they’re using their mouths. Just go and be yourself and talk about your experience and talk about things and people will actually embrace it a lot more. But also they will respect the company a lot more. All right, folks. We are back with another episode of Employer Branding Unfiltered. I am your host, John Graham. Uh and I have to say this is uh this has been a long time coming. Uh I think we we had planned this or put this order into the universe in uh in the fall of 2023 at World Employer Branding Day when we met in person for the first time. But we have been longtime fans of each other through LinkedIn and uh as you know once you meet your your your favorite folks in person uh the world changes. So, I am happy uh and and really I think we’re in for a treat here to uh bring uh Miss Claire Duza on to EBM Filter. Welcome, Claire. >> Hello. Hello. I’m so excited to be here. It’s been two years in the making. >> It has. It has. That’s how that’s how busy and important you are. That’s that’s the testament right there. Running the world. >> Busy as important. No. >> Well, we can agree to disagree. But um but look, let’s let’s let’s dig into it. Share share with the world who you are and what you do. >> Where do I start? Well, um so I’m uh I’m the co-founder of an employer brand community called the EV Space. Uh by night, by day I look after employer branding for one of the UK’s largest retailers. So it’s it’s really dull. It’s really quiet. Like, you know, it’s I’m not busy at all. >> I was like, dull? No. No, never a dull moment. Yes. Yes, indeed. So, so we’re going to get into a lot here. Um, but I I want to I want to give some some space for your background in the EB world. Um, you’ve been doing this for a bit now. >> I won’t I won’t put your your numbers out there. Um, >> but you’ve seen you’ve seen this space grow. uh and I think you have a very clear vision of the need for this space to grow further. Um but talk to me about your early days. I I want to know, you know, as I ask everyone, when did you first fall in love with employer branding? >> You know what? It’s a really it’s a really interesting question. I think I was looking actually was looking at my numbers um the other day prepping for this but I was I was like actually I think it was when I was working for an executive search firm and I was working one of their clients and I was actually doing employer brand work for them but I didn’t know what it was called and when I went to my next job afterwards I was had a really weird job title but I was doing an employer branding role and I went to this conference and then I was like these are my people like these are the people that get what I do and I really loved it because it was doing all these things that I love doing. It was creative. It was peopleled. It was kind of nosy because you you really have to know what people are doing and why they’re doing it. And I loved it. But it was it was around then I think it I can’t remember the year but it was around seven or eight years ago when I realized what I did had an actual title. I couldn’t convince my then employer to change it but in my head I was in my heart I think I was like I do employer branding. I know what I do now. Finally, I have a name. Yes. >> Yeah. No, that’s that’s good because I I think, you know, we hear we hear from all of our guests that nobody went to school for this work, right? Like this is something that we kind of fell into uh or had a skill set that was transferable and then we sort of figured out our title later. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. So since those those early days, right, and really starting to shape and lean into this work and and then start to have your own point of view and take and so forth, what have you seen as sort of that those pivotal markers of growth for employer brand uh whether it was within the organizations you were in or just the industry as a whole? I I think I see more and more employer brand roles and I think also I know I know there is a always a lovehate relationship with comms in marketing but I think especially in the last couple of years I’ve know it’s all love >> frozen sunshine. What are you talking about? >> Exactly. No rain ever, no storms. But I think in the last two or three years I’ve seen more and more people actually become a bit more commercial about what they’re doing. And I’ve seen so many roles like pop up at big companies, small companies. What I really love is actually when I see employer branding roles pop up at startups because actually that’s says at the very beginning of a company being created, they want somebody who’s going to look after employer branding. I’ve seen employer branding roles like go round and round for some some brands where they’ve got a really bad culture. And I find that really funny because I’m like, “Wow, this this job is up again. It’s been nine months. They’re doing it again.” And but I think the fact that there is so much growth in in the role and actually people wanting it I think is incredible. I think pe companies may not know how to quite define it. I’ve seen roles which are like you need 10 years of experience in employer branding and I’m like no you don’t. If you have one two you’re seasoned you can do it and if you should know how how to make impact like you know how to do it. But I think the growth in those roles and actually how a lot of people stay in companies, grow teams, I think that for me is is incredible. >> Mhm. Yeah, you make a really good point. Like there’s there is no, you know, 10 years of employer brand experience. Like that’s stop that. Like can can you survive our seuite? That’s that’s what should be in in the title, right? Can you influence global leaders to accept that this is a real thing? >> Um yeah. So, so to that point, like there are more roles popping up, right? So, our space is expanding at least that that showcases the market, recognizes the demand for our talents, right? Fine. >> But I’m also starting to see more people, more of our colleagues back in the job market, right? So, >> yeah. Yeah. >> What’s your take on that? Um, you know, and how employer brand is being leveraged, right? um within organizations in today’s talent market. >> I don’t know if I’ve got a controversial opinion on this, so I’m going to put it out there and sorry if I offend anyone, but I’m going to say it anyway. I think I think you get a lot of a lot of people who are who are either really really good at their jobs or maybe have been maybe not so good at their their jobs sometimes. But I think when I say not so good, I mean you have to really show the value now. And I think I don’t think a lot of people know how to go I can prove the commercial value of what I’m doing. So when a company a bit like recruitment when a company’s going we need to make job cuts. Recruitment is always the first to go because they’re like you’re a cost center. >> Whereas actually if you flip that and say we’re a value ad because by the way we’ve just brought in loads of people that will make you money by doing the jobs they do. you start changing the narrative. You actually start making people think we can’t get rid of this function because you’re really really important. We can’t get rid of talent attraction, talent acquisition because even if we’re going through a really hard time, we still need to want people to work for us. I think it’s for some people I know personally who are have been out of work for a really long time, I think it’s it’s really disappointing because they’ve got such a big amazing set of skills and actually they’ve got so much to offer companies. But I think there is a almost a not a danger but I think a lot of people have left roles when they’re they’re quite senior and a lot of the companies that are opening up roles are less senior. So they’re kind of going, I got too big for this role. And where they’ve become senior is because they’ve grown and developed into a role. But then it’s like the company’s gone, we’re crunching, so we’re going to keep the people who are a bit more junior because you’re too expensive. But they lose the insights and the strategy and the thinking that that person who’s more seasoned will naturally bring and they expect the person who was a little bit more junior to to be able to step up into that. And it’s very difficult. I think one of the the biggest unsung skills I think of an employer brander is actually managing people and the higher up you go the less actual work you’re doing because you’re managing people’s opinions what they’re thinking oh a lot of the time their goes I think as well because you’ll get somebody who goes I want to do this and I know how to do it and I want to get people who are in this background and you’re like tell me why but tell me why you want to go after that background tell me um why you want to do this and you actually have to really be able to have those challenging conversations and they naturally happen the more senior or the more seasoned you are doing something. So I think it’s a I’ve got I’m a mixed bag and I think also I for me if I use myself as an example I’m not out of work but I was I was browsing my CV the other day and I was like I have not updated this thing in god knows how long yet. I deliver workshops I’m updating your CV and I was like I need to kind of practice what I preach. And so I started to like just note down things that I’m doing because I forget. And I think when you find yourself in that that position as well, it’s like the the last person you always think of is is yourself. And then you have to remember all the things that you’ve done and all the impact that you’ve that you’ve made somewhere. And it will be phenomenal. But you then suddenly this position of like, oh god, I don’t have a job. What do I do? And how do I update my CV? And how do I make this CV reflect who I am? And it’s a bit like when you’re searching for a job when you’re out of work, the panic can set in. When you’re searching for a job, when you’re in work, the panic is not there as much because you’re sort of safe. And I think the same with the CV, when you’re doing it in this panic state because you’re like, oh my god, I need to find something else. It’s not going to be your best work because your your mindset is like, I have to find a job right now. Um, and so I think there’s lots of things that kind of come into play, but I think sometimes the companies aren’t mature enough for it. They’re opening up these roles. they are just not senior enough or they just or they’re not open to have those conversations to say we need this. But I think also companies still dictate what they want from an employer branding function and there needs to be more of a two-way conversation around it which is where those ridiculous job descriptions kind of come into it. You know, you need a 100 years experience and it’s like have you seen anyone who’s got 100 years experience in this field? It’s >> it’s nuts. It’s not that old. >> Not old enough. Yeah. I was about to say we haven’t been around long enough yet. Look, you you touched on a couple of of things. I want to talk about the impact of employer brand, measuring that, quantifying that, not just for your your your your CV >> uh resume, but also for your your leadership. >> But then there’s this other notion and I think um the undercurrent uh and the undertone is something that I’m seeing pick up significantly. There’s a lot of signal around employer brand not primarily as a talent attraction mechanism. More so I’m starting to see employer brand being uh utilized or sort of molded into a talent engagement uh culture uh culture enhancement play uh and obviously retention. Uh talk to me a bit about that. where where are you seeing employee brands sort of being stretched beyond this notion of oh it’s just to attract talent well we’re not hiring now so how does EB still stay relevant >> so I think I think it comes back to joining the dots a bit more I think a lot of people when they go into companies they’ll go I’m an island I I’m the employer brand I’m an island and I I say that because I used to do it before I learned maybe the hard way that actually you’re not an island like you may be on your own in your job but you’re not an island And I went on a real journey with myself about okay what does a business care about versus what do I care about and then it comes down to that I hate to say it but that conflict in comms and marketing because actually it’s really important comms and marketing will look at your brand in two different ways one looks at it from a corporate perspective one looks at it from a selling businesses or customers something but ultimately you’re all playing to one brand and if you think about it it’s like you have a third of the pie marketing has is a third. So it’s like but everyone goes I’m more important. It’s my objective. It’s my this. And it’s like actually if you kind of take your ego out of it because yes, you’re probably the only specialist or one of very few in the company. You take your ego out of it and go well I need to do this but I’m going to get that. They need to do this but they’re going to get that and marketing needs to do this and they’re going to get that. You’re kind of working towards a shared purpose. I think employer brand is stretched a little bit too thin when you blur the lines of those too much. and you go, “Well, we have to do this and we have to do that.” Like, for example, working for a consumer brand. Your employer brand could only do so much. But do you know what? If somebody has a rubbish time interacting with your consumer brand that you can’t control, you can’t control it. It’s a bit like I before I had my current role, I was looking at some other different roles and there was this online retailer and I was like, “Oh, they’ve they’ve got this employer running job. Cool.” I’d ordered a dress from this online retailer and it came three sizes too small. So I’m holding this thing up and I’m like this won’t fit my leg. Wonderful. I really wanted this wonderful dress for like an event that I was going to. So I was really cross. Then the marketing team or like the sorry the customer service team were a little bit rude and I was like well this is rubbish. So, I’d gone from in the morning being like really excited to apply for this job and I’d spoken to the hiring manager to the end of the day being I don’t want to work here because I just had this really horrible experience and the two were just linked together. Your employer brand can’t solve that. It’s like if you’re going to a, you know, you’re going to stay at a a hotel or, you know, an Airbnb somewhere and someone says it’s a really really awful experience, but then the hotel is like glossy and brochures and stuff and you go there and it’s like, “God, this is actually really awful.” You’re going to listen to the person that’s actually said, “This is my lived experience of something.” And when you live an experience of something, your employer brand can’t fix it. And I think sometimes we try to we try to change perceptions. We get really hard in on colleague advocacy programs, but and like you have to embrace the ugly. You have to embrace that people aren’t always going to like you. You’re not always going to be the most popular kid in school, but what you want to be is the person that people actively go to. And I think that’s where you kind of need to refocus your attention in terms of your brand. Rather than trying to fix and solve every problem, you actually have to embrace the fact that there are going to be parts of your your brand that people just don’t like, don’t resonate with. you might pay poorly or your learning might be rubbish or but you you have to own it. And I think Goldman Sachs is one that does it really really well because they’ll say if you come and work here, we kind of own you. You’re going to earn loads and loads of money, but you we know that you’re going to burn out. So, you have to make that choice. And I think there was that letter I think the graduates did or the um the more junior colleagues about not having a work life balance. It’s like we don’t care. And that I kind of loved because they were like this is what you get for working here. So deal with it like and they just embrace that kind of ugly side of it. And I think more brands need to sort of embrace that and own it a bit more. Um I don’t think enough do and I think employer branding is used as a solution for problems that actually can’t be solved by employer branding. >> Oh message that’s these are bars folks. These are bars she is dropping gems. Listen, I I think I think you’re absolutely spot on in that you can’t you can’t use employer brain as a surrogate for a shitty culture, right? Like it’s you can’t dress that up enough to to hide it. >> Uh and and when we come in and and we do the research, right, as as employer brand practitioners, we’re going to hear those stories. And if they become consistent enough, well, guess what? That is your culture, right? Because that’s how people are experiencing it. So, to your point, I don’t I don’t see enough brands leaning into uh who they truly are. I mean, Goldman Sachs and and I’m glad you brought them up. They’ve they’ve come up a couple of times actually in uh EB unfiltered podcast episodes by some brilliant folks because I think we all get that they are unapologetic in who they are, right? They are very clear like we are going to eat your soul, right? Yeah. >> You’re going to make a ton of money while we’re doing it. Uh and the skill set that you’re going to get will be extremely valuable. And oh, by the way, having our name on your resume is instant credibility and prestige. >> If you can be that clear on your value proposition and people are still lining up around the block to to to run through brick walls to join you, then I think that is the ultimate articulation of a brand that >> completely embraces who they are. Um, but why do you think so many so many companies are still afraid to do so when you have these >> some of these brands, right? Netflix’s culture was just un like radical cander like they will read your emails out loud to the colleague who you’re talking about if you do right like there’s there’s some clear standards that they have that set themselves apart as a culture and people still want to join them why are so many brands afraid to embrace the ugly >> I think they’re scared I think if I’m really honest I think they’re scared of the impact on their reputation or the impact that it might have on what people think about them and then they run around when something goes wrong because you know someone’s dead criticize or and I think that’s where you know you get a lot of teams been like you can’t speak you can’t do this you can’t do that because they’re like they want to protect it but the worst thing you can do by doing that is that people will go out anyway because we’re not I think especially postco I know co was now you know a long time ago but I think the impacts of co are still felt people have become so vocal about what they think and they don’t think I think the the biggest shift I saw um I guess postco was that Before COVID, if you were a big brand, you had this arrogance. Oh, we’re big enough. You’re going to come and work for us. We don’t care. Now, it’s like, how dare you treat me like that? That interview was terrible. They call out the hiring manager on LinkedIn. They call out the brand. And that’s a really scary environment to live in. And rather than actually embrace it, a lot of corporate comms teams will go, “No, you can’t speak. You can’t do this.” Then they’re almost saying to their employees, “We don’t trust you to speak. We don’t trust you to do half of these things.” And so the employees will do it anyway like without permission. They won’t even seek forgiveness because they’re using their mouths. And I think that’s the thing that a lot of brands are scared of. It’s like actually if you sort of say guys just go and be yourself and talk about your experience and talk about things and people will actually embrace it a lot more, but also they will respect the company a lot more that they’re working for. And I think it’s just it’s got to be a mindset shift. You’ve got to move away from the from the fear. And because I think it’s it’s a bit like I’m going to go here, but like a bit like DNI. It becomes commercial. It’s a the what? Let’s see if >> that which must not be named. >> DNI’s like Voldemort now. >> Oops. >> So sorry. Can you see? >> Oh, no. No. We say it all. It’s unfiltered here. It’s just that’s how you know >> but it’s I was at the event yesterday which um go I will touch upon but there was this brilliant brilliant person uh called I’m going to name drop but Marca God she’s fantastic but she talks about inclusion and tying it into high performance and the thing is if you if you don’t realize that actually that’s a that’s such a good link and how you should look at it you then lose that commerciality of it because you know with greater teams that think differently you get so much more from it because people are bringing their experience, their lived experience, like their their opinions that come from different viewpoints into your organization, >> but it’s saying you’re brave enough to step out of that and say, “We’re going to go against the curve and I don’t care if you don’t like it. We’re going to go against it anyway.” It’s um and it’s a bit like I was I was reading this book I think it’s called Alchemy. So if I’m really wrong in this I apologize but there’s the really great story in there about Red Bull and the thing is like they talk about it said would you ever market a disgusting drink and you’re like of course I wouldn’t. Anyone who says they like the taste of Red Bull I don’t believe you but Red Bull tastes disgusting. Yeah, Red Bull do so well. They have a Formula 1 team, you know, like they just it’s like crazy, but it’s a really disgusting drink and they market the hell out of it and they ignored all the research that said, “Don’t do this. It’s awful.” Like all the consumers said it’s really awful, but they want to do something that rivaled I think it was Coca-Cola and they have, but they’ve it’s like crazy and you have Red Bull everywhere. I think the advert I can always remember is Red Bull gives you wings. Like I never forget sitting here thinking about the wings. It gives you wings. I’m like, “God, that’s so sticky.” >> I don’t even know what that means, but it’s sticky, >> right? And it’s But it’s illogical. It’s illogical to go and market and and sell something that tastes so vile, but yet they do it so well. And I lost a lot of my, you know, university days drinking vodka red balls and it was disgusting, but I was I’m going to do it anyways. And but it’s illogical. And I think it’s stepping into that fear of like it could fail or it might not work, but also saying if we do this, people are going to respect us. so much more. And there’s still like Goldman Sachs going to line the front door saying, “I still want to work for you. I know what you’re like. I know what your culture is like and I still want to work for you.” But I think it’s when you hear the word culture, people want to go, “We’re amazing. We’re wonderful. We’re warm and fuzzy.” Rather than saying we’re this, this, and this, we’re not that. So, if you want to come here for really high pay or loads of learning opportunities, you’re not going to get it. But if you want to come here for like learning and experience, maybe you’ll get that. Like, it’s it’s just being honest. And I don’t think companies want to want to be that all the time because it’s it’s very scary, but it’s like, oh, will this impact our bottom line? The irony is it impacts your bottom line more because you don’t bring in the best future talent because they don’t want to work for you because you’re not being honest. Like, if you think about >> how Gen Z call out um call companies out for stuff, they’re the talent of the future. And if actually you want your business to last for the future, you have to think about who you want to attract. And it’s those that that group like that generation that you really want to attract and say we need to be honest here because they’re going to call us out for it. So we you lose out on that talent who actually going to inadvertently make you money because they’re going to work for you and bring all their ideas because you’re not being honest. But I I I just don’t think people make that connection yet. It’s like no, we we can’t allow this. We must not do it. And it’s the shutters come down and I’m like if you open them up a bit, you’ll be amazed at what you can get from it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And shouts out to Rory Sutherland, uh, author of Alchemy. Uh, I highly recommend. Yeah, that book is tremendous. >> Yeah. I mean, he’s he’s a he’s a fire brand in in the consumer marketing space, obviously. V Ogulv um, you know, uh, Pedigree and um, but he’s just an a a a vast thinker, right? And and certainly the the the data that goes behind a lot of those decisions to go against the grain, right? Red Bull’s a great example that he gives. But I think what what is our equivalent in employer brand when we have so many people who are afraid to do things that are counterintuitive, but the ones who do it win, right? It’s like you have enough data. I I haven’t seen a uh like a an employer brand campaign that has fallen so flat, right? That has been like so tonedeaf that it has caused like revenue damage, right? We’ve seen marketing campaigns for consumer brands that have done that a lot. So I’m like, you don’t even have like a frame of reference for going risky with employer brand, right? So, so why are we afraid to do that? And it’s it’s the individuals. It’s not the organization, right? Or maybe your organization is stiff and conservative. Fine. >> But it comes down to somebody with enough voice hasn’t been convinced to be honest yet, >> right? And I think that’s that’s where our role needs to evolve to. But before we can do that, we also have to prove this thing called ROI. Hey there, quick pause before we jump back in. If you’re enjoying the conversation and want to hear more, head over to the Shaker podcast page at shaker.com where you can catch every episode from this season and seasons past. And more importantly, if what you’re hearing sparks ideas about your own EVP and employer brand, I’d love to connect. Just scroll down to the ready to work with John section, drop in your info, and we’ll get some time on the calendar so we can dream out loud together and let’s get you back to your episode. How do you how do you quantify the impact, Claire, of of employer brand? How have you what have you seen or what have you leveraged as metrics that cuz I think you have a really great take on this of like showcasing the impact of employer brand and not just saying butts and seats because we we can’t even like measure that for for employer brand but what’s what’s your take on and your your your secret sauce for measuring impact? >> I I’ve got I’ve got two a couple of different ones. I think I think it depends on the type of hiring that you do in your organization. So if you’re doing volume hiring or like in in in with a consumer environment, it’s arguably a bit easier because a lot of consumers consumerf facing businesses are set up to measure exact hours. So if you’re actually you’re into your data um and you really unpick it, you can understand how many hours are being spent on interviews, how many hours being spent on missed interviews, like what’s the impact of that to the business because hours have to be logged. And if you can do that and you go, “Right, well, I can save you this number of hours because I’m going to get the be better people in quicker and you’re going to interview them and you work really closely with your recruitment teams to say, how is the what’s the experience here for a candidate?” But also, where do people actually fall down? Because I always hear that, well, we need to get more people in and employer branding is the answer. I’m like, no, it’s not like it’s I always call it like the leaky bucket. It’s one of my favorite ones where I’ll get someone going, “We have to spend all money in this campaign. We have to track people.” And I’m like, “You got a leaky bucket.” And I’m like, the first thing I’ll always say to somebody is, “Why are they going? Why what why are people leaving so quickly?” And you’ll always find there’s some something broken in that process when someone’s actually joining. And it’s like, it’s got nothing to do with attracting people into the business. So I think it’s understanding as well what are the things that you actually need to look at first before employer branding becomes becomes the answer to it because it never is the answer. It’s actually something you should be a lot more proactive about. And if you you’re being really proactive and then you’re reactive little and often you’ve actually won it because you’re you’re thinking about things like one step ahead. I think when you’re looking at professional hiring, you’ve got to look at the role that someone’s playing, but it’s like, okay, what’s the time to hire for someone coming into the business? Why is it taking that long? So, even things like, I can’t get into this person’s diary because it’s they’ve got no availability. It’s like, well, hang on a minute. So, 3 weeks have gone by, we’ve lost that person. So, we’ve lost a great person. Now, you got to spend money finding a new person, then you’re waiting another three weeks. So, what’s the operational impact of that person not being in a role? Are you burning somebody out? If you burn somebody out, then actually that person’s going to be go on an extended period of leave for a few months or worse, they’ll leave the business cuz they’re not supported because they don’t have the right people in play. So, actually, how do you step back and go, how do I make get that person set up for success right at the beginning? Like even before you start hiring, right, we’re going to find people. I need to have three slots in your diary in two weeks time because I’m going to fill those roles. you have to protect those slots. Nothing can come into it. And if something does come into it, we’re gonna it’s going to cost you resource, time, and and money. And I think it’s looking at it like that, like if you look at someone’s salary and say, “Right, well, it’s cost us this amount of money to have this role not filled.” You’re like, “Well, here’s actually the the value of it.” You have to create um you have to create the reason like and show people the impact of them not doing something and also the value of them of actually taking the action and saying this is what and it’s not going to be a perfect science because every role is different but if you know for example the cost of of that person say someone’s salary I don’t know is is 30k and you’re saying I can’t get this person into the role because you’re never available it’s like well how much is that would that person make every month this is the cost of you not filling this role because actually you’re doing your job and how much do you make? Well, you’re doing your job. You’re not doing your job well enough because actually you’re doing that person’s job as well. So, you’re stretched really thin. What’s the impact of you not doing those things? And actually, you’re not making any money here. You’re actually you’re impacting the business negatively because you’re not delivering. And so I guess I try and look it’s it’s a bit round about and I don’t know whether I’ve done the explanation any justice but I think it’s trying to look at it from a from a different way and also trying to to get to the motivations of the person who’s actually hiring and actually getting them to take accountability to say we can measure the impact of not filling this role because ultimately an employer brand you’ve got two jobs and I know there’s a debate about does recruitment marketing and employer brand they together not together but um let’s not go down that rabbit hole yet but I I think it’s I think >> I want to go down that rabbit hole though. >> Keep going. >> They go hand in hand. So actually if you’ve got a strong employer brand, you have to work less to do your recruitment marketing. If your employer brand is really fuzzy, it’s not that well defined. You have to do so much more work to to do that recruitment marketing and you’re making stuff up as you go along because you don’t have anything to anchor on. And I think those those two things go hand in hand. They should come together would would be my because actually they lead like almost neatly on from each other but they almost they are different as well in terms of the skill set that you need to execute them as well. But I think it’s you you can then look at how much time are we spending on this campaign like if our employer brand was really strong we would spend less time on this campaign less money on this campaign cuz actually we don’t need to do all this work. And I’ve done campaigns where we switched it off after 2 days because we’ve had 800 applications come through and and I’m like, “Well, you’re done now.” They’re like, “What?” And I said, “Well, I’ve positioned this amount of money to go and do this campaign, but I’ve given you 800 people. Let me know if they’re okay or not okay.” And usually the quality is high because actually what you’re going out with is really good messaging, but also it’s that commercial aspect to say, “Well, sure, I’ve saved money here. So, by the way, we and also something I tend to do is say, “This is how much I positioned. this is how much I’ve saved. What can I do with that extra? Like how can you make that extra money then go further and say right well we’ve saved this money this is what we’re going to do and I think bring all of those elements in together you start creating a real return on investment because then you’re saying I’ve got this money but I’m making it go further and I’m making it go further cuz my brand is stronger or like the messaging is stronger. I’m not having to work as hard to get people like into roles. All of it ties together though and it’s like you have to be able to tie those things together. That comes down to like the earlier piece around how can you actually show that value and how do you understand it? Like because you have to articulate it to other people and if you can’t articulate it well enough, you’re going to be stuck in like the same cycle of like I need to roll to fill. it’s all here and I’ve got it right away and and it just continues and then you’re not ever showing value because actually a true employer brand especially ones who are the sole person in their in their business. You need to be able to have one camp in your future bucket strategy and one camp in the operational bit. And if you can’t balance the two and if there is a if one becomes bigger than the other, you’re fighting a losing battle. Like you have to keep it 50/50. Cuz if you don’t, then you’re not actually executing and you can’t hear, you can’t plan with one brain and then solve in the other. You have to have them like even. >> Yeah. I love that you that you examine the structural challenges or barriers to the business outcomes that people are trying to achieve, right? Because I think if we’re just coming and looking at it through the lens of let’s go bring in more people through these shiny campaigns, then we’ve missed the opportunity to say, well, what problem are we actually trying to solve for, >> right? And I think far too often from those who in in in let’s say in the senior leadership roles are saying hey we need an EVP right or we need an employer brand. Well, that might be a tool that you need, but what are you actually trying to solve for? What are you trying to achieve uh in the next, you know, two years of your business cycle that talent is going to, you know, help support uh whether it’s new product launch, whether it’s expansion into other markets, whatever the case may be. Let’s think about first, let’s work backwards from what you’re trying to solve for and then see where uh employer brand and recruitment marketing um are are great tools to use because you might be trying to hammer something that needs a saw, right? >> Holes, isn’t it? I think people go, I need this and it’s like, do you do you really need it? It’s it’s it’s almost like when people go, I need a diverse team. It’s like why do you need a diverse team? I need people who are coming from Redbrook universities. I love that challenge because I always say, “Hey, where where have your leadership team come from? What do you mean?” They said, “Do they go to Red Brook universities? Do they all have these degrees? They have this.” No. >> No. >> But they’re leadership team. >> Yeah. >> Oh. And I’m like, >> don’t want to say point made, but point made. >> Point well made. So, so yeah. So, so let’s let’s get into it. that you got, you know, you’ve got um you saw a gap in the market and you said, “You know what? I’m going to go fill that with something wonderful, something delightful that that the world has never seen before.” And it’s called the EB space. Tell me, tell us about the EB space and how this this dream woke you up in the middle of the night and said, “I need to do this.” I think, do you know what? And I I’m going to go here as well, right? We’re both people of color. So, this is But this is the thing. As you as you go as you go further up >> I was I wasn’t aware of that. >> I had no idea. >> Today, it’s like, right, if I if I go into a room, I find it really weird if there are lots of people of color in that room because I’m like, “Oh, there’s more people like me.” I did this this um high I did this course for high performing people of an ethnic minority. It’s a bit of a mouthful. And I’m in this room and everybody on the screen was brown and I was like this feels really weird in a really weird way. And it’s and that was a thing cuz I’m so used to going into being the odd one out, right? Or just the the one who looks different. And I think with the employer branding space, um, it tends to be like the same people at the same conferences and the same people with the bigger voices and everyone’s an expert and everyone knows everything. And I’m like, right. And so when we and I was in this another like kind of community, but everything was kind of US focused. And I’m like, there must be people in Europe and the UK and Australia and other places, but they don’t talk. I don’t I don’t know who they are. I want to know who they are. And so it was a nugget that myself and and Alex had like should we just create our own? And I remember this very vividly because we kind of put all the work into terms of like should we just create it? And we set it up on Discord. We were like we’ve got all these things and and so one I think it was a Tuesday evening. It was very rainy and Alex was like, “Okay, you need to press launch.” and this oh I don’t know on this launch post and we’ve done all the work behind it like you know we created our first version of a logo as always it’s now developed but anyway first version of that logo was all there and we were like okay cool and we just pressed go and it was I was running around London actually trying to find my location and I was like I’m just going to hit go on this thing and within like I think it was a week or so we we already had 100 people and I was like gez we’ve got 100 people and then in the past two years it’s grown to over 650 people across 45 countries and I’m like okay there are loads of people when I saw somebody in Botswana and another person in Vietnam and I was like wow okay and it’s been like a real fudgy journey there was this weekend where Alex was having an actual baby and I was creating the EB website and after that weekend I was like well we’ve both kind of had babies this weekend you had a real one I had the website and um and literally over this weekend I knocked up like our our website being like I’ve done it it’s kind of been like that, like flying by the seat of our pants a lot of the time. Like even for our very first event in London in November, I decided like the week before to change the branding because I kind of do a lot of the creatives for it. And a lot of it just comes out of my head. So there’s no testing. And I was like, let’s print two banners and see which one you like. And Alex’s like, I like this one. I mean, you like this one. And he was like, you like this one, don’t you? Like kind of. Yeah. And it was and but it’s just testing things and kind of changing it as we as we go along. And it’s it’s really fun. It’s I won’t lie, it’s a lot of it’s a lot of hard work, but it’s also really rewarding because there was this point especially across co where I was like there is this one person in the UK is talking at every single event and there must be more people. And now I’m like wow the UK has got so many people, Europe has so many people and you connect with people and learn from them and it’s wonderful and amazing. But that’s the whole point of it. And the Discord community is completely free. We were like, and you know, somebody might post a problem who might be based in France and another person in Australia will go and answer it. It’s literally like that. People will just talk to each other and know that the community is there and it’s just it’s really nice the fact that it is there and it’s it’s not about Alex or I. It’s not about like ourselves. It’s literally like here’s a space, go and do it. And you know, it’s it’s for you to enjoy, for you to to go and have fun with. And I just I love it because there are so many different people from different backgrounds. Like if you wanted something that was like totally inclusive or diverse by nature, I’d say that’s it cuz it’s like people are from everywhere with all these different thoughts and opinions and it’s amazing. >> Yeah. Well, kudos to you for creating a space number one, but then more so a platform, right, for people to engage, connect, solve challenges together, expand, network, uh, where otherwise they might not have. But there’s there’s a unique difference to your format than these other conferences. Talk a little bit about that if you don’t mind. >> Oh, yeah. So, yesterday, >> still fresh on her mind. It really is. See, so we we had this I um we started this thing called EB Uncut. So I’ll be really honest. I wanted to call it the uglies, but Alex taught me out of that. It actually the the nugget for it was when I met you a couple of years ago cuz I was like I I see a lot of conferences where it’s like let’s talk about case studies or let’s talk about how great something is. And there is a place for that but I’m like I don’t learn anything. I’m like cool you done this happy days. I want to know what went wrong because nobody who works in an employer branding role does it because they hate it. If there’s one thing I can say about employer brand professionals, they actually really love the job because there is so much excuse my language that comes with it and actually they still plow through this. Like I still love doing what I do. And that for me was like a bit of a nugget. And so last year I kind of had this mad idea being like we could do something that’s really different and we could turn events on its head and I have no idea what it will look like but it could be something. And so Ebian cut was born and it was this idea that we would have panel conversations. We’d really turn up for the community. We wouldn’t have any death by PowerPoint. And I’d like to say there was not a PowerPoint in sight. Like I use Canva by the way for anyone who’s looking at the screen but no PowerPoint. There is nothing. there is nothing there and it was just a way to say here’s a day to connect people and really create community. We’re not going to do a hundred like different sessions. We’re going to have many sessions but many breaks for people to get to know each other. And so when we were putting it together it was incredible to actually in being there yesterday. I think I when I the day started I looked up and we had we had 100 spaces available. 86 people signed up by the end of Tuesday, which was a tiny bit stressful because I was like at the beginning of Tuesday there was 70 people. And then by I was like, “Oh god, there’s so many people.” >> And then three dropped out. And I’m looking up at this auditorium and I’m like, >> “Oh my gosh, there are so many people here.” And I started losing my ability to speak. And then I forgot to say who I was. And I was like, “Oh yeah, my name’s Cla.” And it was but it was so amazing. And we did lots like there were lots of little things that that happened. So for example, um we decided not to have roles on name badges. It was a name and I put an icebreaker questions that probably got progressively cheesier as we went on because I was like there are only so many icebreaker questions I can think of. But they were everyone had a different name badge because the premise of that was everyone’s a human. Everyone in the room had war stories. Some people don’t have jobs at the moment and it creates that safety for them to be like, you know, you know, it they don’t have to have, you know, these different like lanyards or things that that scream to people, I’m out of work. I get the premise of that and it can be really helpful, but also for somebody who’s actually just processing where they are right now. That can also be quite a big thing and actually something they don’t want to have. Um, and but we wanted to do that. I put little orange stickers in people’s bags in case they didn’t want to be filmed cuz we had, you know, not one podcast, we had two podcasters throughout the day cuz, you know, double trouble. The guys are great, but it was like people didn’t have the opportunity to appear on podcasts all the time. So, we were like, why don’t we just do something where they have an opportunity to do it. We had a room that was a bit of a quiet room. We had another kind of crew just filming throughout the day. um with all of our panelists, we decid decided that actually let’s pay them. Let’s offer a payment. And although, you know, we’re not some money-making machine, we and we said, look, we’ll give you £250. We’ll offer it to you, but if you don’t want that, that’s okay. We’ll use it to fund another space. And then for people who were out of work, we said, look, we’ll just get you a ticket. We’ll we’ll pay for your travel if it’s UKwide, and we’ll also give you some sustenance today because do you know what? It costs money. Like if you’re traveling a long way, you want to go and have a cup of tea, a cup of coffee, lunch, and when you’re out of work and in those situations, it can be really daunting to be like, I I can’t do this, like cuz I just don’t have the funds to do it. It’s all those little things that people forget. Then of course, you know, the retro picker mixes, we had like bags of those. And full disc, last Saturday, I was literally in my room like putting loads of sweets in bags and I was like, this is my Saturday. Maybe I need to get a live. then just and then getting like all these stickers and stuff made and it was it was so exciting. We had and then the premise of the panels were sorry you got me on a tangent now but the premise of the panels are really different. So we said you got to be you know you you can’t be if you’re going to be on a panel you’re not going to be on a on a panel like immediately after the event. We want to open it up. We opened it up to the the community and said if you want to be take part in this apply and we had so many people applying to be part of like different panels which was amazing. We had um I said let’s let’s do a debate for the EVP and the guys at at Leap Creek who one of our sponsors who brought that to life it was so funny but also it was like yay or nay for the EVP but also with the panelists I painted two straws and so before the panelists could sit down they had to choose a straw so they had to prepare arguments like either yay or nay EVP and then they on the spot and I said that in itself just facilitated conversation and at the end of it when people signed start to get a ticket. We asked them to share their EB problems. So we had like an EB therapy session at the end where all these problems were in a box and some of the panelists and I joined the panel would pick out a problem. They weren’t prepped. They had no idea what these problems were. They just had to answer the problem. But then that turned into like with the all of the audience just uh everyone contributing. So people were talking to each other or saying, “Oh, what about this? What about that?” And it was so awesome. And then we rounded it off with like some networking um in the evening. And then we also said look if you want to continue the conversation we all love a QR code so there are many of them but like scan the QR code and we’ll create some blogs from it like so you have your say you know obviously give us feedback but also at the beginning of the day we had these postcards and it’s like the one of them said what do you want to get out of it the end of the day we said right what did you get out of it but also who are two people that you’re going to go and have a coffee with and so we just wanted to create this idea of community and make sure that people felt connected and I I’ve got to say like I couldn’t have dreamed it could have gone any better. It was just so incredible to be part of it. I definitely could barely walk or speak by the end of it cuz I was just gabbling and but it was incredible to to to be able to bring people together, people that I have known for a long time, people that I’ve not seen for ages. It was just all kinds of awesome and I just I loved every minute of it. I’m still buzzing, but it was just it was just amazing. >> I feel it. I feel it now. Look, I I’m I’m low-key jealous that I wasn’t there. Uh not because I wasn’t invited, folks, but because it is in London, I could not make it. But, um I this sounds like the conference I’ve been dreaming of. Uh and don’t get me wrong, there’s some really good conferences out there, but the fact that you intentionally, right, very much in line with our conversation, opted to be counter culture, right? It’s counterintuitive. Let’s let’s really go for the things that I that we’ve been missing that actually add the most value to these experiences. And I love the the spaces you created in between the sessions where I’ll be honest, I think some of these conferences the most value I get is not the sessions, it’s the network. It’s the it’s the off, you know, offchance conversation in the hall that turns into an hour and a half or the dinner that goes till 3:00 a.m. Like those are the those are the the value props that you can’t curate, right? Unless you just create the space. >> And I love that you intentionally. >> Yeah. And at one point I thought, have I put too many networking breaks into this? But then each each break was 15 minutes long and people could just go and talk. It was similar to the event we ran in ran in London um in November when I my my proudest moment of that was looking up at the room and not a person was on their phone and when I was even I was running about yesterday like a headless chicken. Every time I got into like the networking breaks I was like >> everyone’s just talking to each other. Everyone is just having a really good time. People weren’t in their same groups. people like talking to like different people and I was like this is this is community like this is connection this is creating a safe space for the conversations that we don’t necessarily want to have but also disagreements not everyone has to agree with each other all the time you don’t have to pat someone on the back and be like yeah that was great sometimes it’s great to say I thought it was okay but what else like what else are you doing and I think sometimes egos lead the way for loads of stuff sometimes it’s like I’m the expert I can do this and and from an employer branding community. I think there’s not a lot of authenticity all the time. I think actually we don’t always embrace being authentic ourselves because you’re always out to prove something. But I’m like if actually you embrace being human yourself and where things go wrong and join conversations where it’s like I don’t know how to do something. The number of people I reach out to where I’m like I need help or how do I do this or what do I do? even agency friends like I think people go you’re an agency you’re going to sell to me and it’s like hey there are some agency folk there and I was like they’ve all got war stories but I’ve got friends in agencies people I really trust or pick up the phone to be like I’m having this problem they’re not selling to me yes exactly it’s like you’re not they’re not selling there they’re just helping you solve the problem because at the core of everything are friendships and I think the other thing like people talk think networking and they think it’s a really scary word but I’m like just go make a friend. Go make a friend like make that per like see that per that friend in person like have real conversations be be honest and actually you then cement cement friendships which you know stand the test of time but also people help people help others like people like helping others and there’s so much knowledge in community I think people forget that it’s like no it must be I must be perfect it must be this thing don’t be perfect be raw be be human because that’s basically who we all are don’t be the glossy like magazine brochure, be the person writing the review and like being a bit vulnerable about it and you just get so much more out of it. So, it’s I’m still buzzing, but it was just an awesome time. >> Oh my gosh, Claire, I could talk to you for hours. Um, and I and unfortunately I I can’t uh but but we we’ve covered a lot. We’ve covered a lot and I and I I Oh, man. I can’t wait to see how uh the EB space expands. Um, I know you have ideas for uh all types of different ways to make this uh more impactful uh especially with more data that you collected from yesterday’s experience. So, kudos to you and would love to to share how people can learn more about it uh to attend next time. >> Well, just evace.com and and we’ll put all the stuff on there. Um, and but yeah, I was going to say we don’t know if there will be next time, but now I’m like there will be. We just need to figure out when it will be. >> It’s it’s not an if, it’s a when. Yes, for sure. So in in as we as we come down from the mountain of of peaks of joy and into the valley of departure uh as common tradition we always uh ask uh the question that was left for our former guest for our current guests. And so your question Claire is what is a different or better way that you can collect employer sto uh employee stories or tell employee stories to really capture their lived experience in a different way. >> So this is going to sound really counterintuitive but be quiet. >> Literally that is it like to listen to what people are doing. I think people kind of jump to colleague advocacy, right, as an example of being like, we must curate stuff. And I’m like, if you don’t if you just listen for a little while and you hear what people are saying and you you research stuff and you just you put your company hashtag in or whatever and or your company name into a platform such as LinkedIn, you’ll find that people are talking naturally and you’ll get so many stories in there and then you can go and talk to them. I think there’s another piece around just just be human. Don’t go to somebody with like I love your story and I want to tell it. Actually get to know people. Get to know people. Not just your leadership team. I think people prioritize your leadership team far too much. Like there there are a bunch of people who are in leadership roles. Fantastic. But the people and where you get the really rich nuggets of contents from are the people who do the the work. You know the people I hate to say at the bottom but you know it’s it’s the people who are doing the do not just you know not just setting the strategy and setting the vision. It’s the people who actually execute it. Go talk to them. Go be curious about your business. Go spend time with people. Like find nuggets that you that inspire you. Like when I was doing a lot of filming in in my current role, but I see people like, “I love your job. Can I find out more? There’s no agenda. I just wanted to find out what people do and I’ve learned so much about my current employer because I just found out what people are doing and I took an interest in it.” I’m like, “That is so cool.” Cool. Like I learned how to change batteries in in handsets and stuff in in stores which I was like this is so awesome. I would never know how to have this really weird skill, but now I do. And it’s it’s really cool like just to spend time listening. Don’t like don’t tell people what they should say. Hear them. Hear people’s experiences and stories and you’ll just get so much more from it. And but I think a lot of people say we have to direct the story. We have to have something. said sometimes there is a place of direction but if you just be quiet and listen and hear what people are saying there is so much more stuff in there and you can really pull that out and that’s where the the gold stuff is I think >> so rich so rich I that’s a fantastic answer so so now in in due form uh what question would you like to leave for our next guest >> see what is the thing or the one thing that you don’t like about employer branding or talent attraction right now that you want to change for the better? >> Oh, that’s a good one. That’s a good one. Oh, I can’t wait to see some hear the answer to that one. >> Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah. Well, now people got to tune in now because this is this is that is a good question. Oh my gosh, Claire, I I can’t thank you enough for your time. uh and even right after, you know, such a a momentous event yesterday, which I know you’re still recovering yet buzzing from. Um thank you so much for spending some time with us and uh and sharing your wisdom and your insights and your passion and your energy for this space. I really appreciate you. >> It’s been a real privilege like being on this. It’s like been on my list for a while, so I’m so glad we could we could make it happen, but I just I loved every minute of it. It’s been amazing. >> Awesome. Well, we’ll make sure all your links to, you know, LinkedIn and the Eevee space are available, uh, where everybody watches and listens. So, thank you so much. Be well, take care, get some rest, and we’ll see you next time. Hopefully have you back on, uh, soon. >> Amazing. Thank you so much.