Employer Branding Unfiltered: S2 Ep.1 – Summer Baruth

It’s not fear, but it is fear, right? Of the space of where like we don’t know what’s coming next. And just continue how we can from a status quo perspective of making it about our people and making sure our people feel seen and safe. That is a monumental task in some instances. We’re real clear now on who was being performative. We’re real freaking clear, right? And so I think that can be a challenge for those individuals. I would say I feel fortunate in the culture of our company and that we’re more concerned of like how are we messaging a way to stay compliant versus changing who we are because it was never performative. [Music] [Music] All right y’all welcome. The time has come. Season two, first episode. Hey, I’ve got um really the first one. I’m so You are the first of season two. I’m honored in that regard because this is this is a titan, y’all. Like this is when we talk about like bold big audacious gosh like views and and right and and and the voice of employer brand um that doesn’t just talk all the cool you know trendy things but like she she says the quiet parts out loud and that’s why I love her. Um I am honored to have the one and only Summer Bar on Employer Branding Unfiltered. Welcome to the show. Thank you sir. That was such a Can you like follow me around places? When people like, “What do you do?” I’m like, “I just talk to this gentleman. He’ll tell you everything.” My agent. Yes. All right, man. Excited. I didn’t realize I was the first guest of season two because I couldn’t get my crap together last year. So, our for last season. You know what? That tells me that the universe said, “No, wait for like the shifting landscape and chaos before you bring summer in because then it’ll be a really Wait for a time such as this to have on to talk about all the things.” That’s it. That’s it. So, we have got enough I think to fuel our conversation for several weeks if we were to do that. But but look, so you you have been a lot of places. Um but you are currently at uh T I AAA uh formerly TIA CF if I’m not mistaken. That’s correct. Look at you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you’re like I don’t know what that is. Roger Ferguson, former CEO. Former CEO now. Yeah. One of one of the few black CEOs of a Fortune 500 company. and her his successor uh the incomparable Tashonda um we love te who who’s who’s amazing. So look your your your role is one that titlewise I haven’t seen much in our space and I want you to share a little bit about the title of the role but also the work you do for the people who don’t know you because they’ve been living under rocks. Oh lovely. Okay, great. Um Summer Bar, right? Um thank you for that lovely introduction. Um so right now um my title with TIA is enterprise brand strategy. So director of enterprise brand strategy. Um we’re evolving it a bit even as we speak to be more of enterprise brand advocacy and engagement because I feel like that’s a better incorporation of this role. And I think we’ll dig into that today a little bit, right, around what happens when this type of work sits in talent acquisition or HR versus when it sits in enterprise brand strategy or brand. I’ve been all around the world, so to speak, when it comes to employer brand. I’ve sat in all kinds of departments, some that made zero sense, but got the work done and that’s all you really wanted to do. Um, and I think this is the best combination of when you can sit in that brand space and be a part of what’s being created um, and have a seat at the table in the right way. Um, and how you get can then be more consultative to the other departments because we know there’s so many spokes to this work. Um, everyone wants to own it but no one really wants to own it. Um, right. So, I think it’s that. So, yeah. So, I’m really loving where it sits in this particular company at a time like this um during a brand transformation during transformation as a whole with a company um led by the incomparable Tashunda. So, yes. Yes. There’s really a vision, not just with her, but with her leadership team on just getting out there and doing the work, and it just makes things so nice. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Look, we we’ve got a lot to dig into off that alone. So, I’m going to write down a few things to come back to on that one, but before I do, um, and maybe I’m just wrecking the flow and the energy here, but I got to know, when did you first fall in love with employer branding? Okay, so this is a good one. So, I was like a little baby corporate person. And I say that I was like 30 something years old. So, like really wasn’t a baby corporate person. It’s like two years ago. Gotcha. Two years. That’s fine. Um I actually had to tell somebody the other day that I was like, “Oh, I’ve been doing this for 24 years and I about had a moment like oh.” Um, so I started out in our inclusion team and learning and development and developing um, engagement programs with our BRGs um, at Compass Group North America and our chief people officer was like, “Hey, we I was wanting to leave the company first of all.” That’s like that’s the that’s the funny part. I’m like, “This is not the team for me. You guys are not like I’m I think I’m like 10 years ahead of where you really want to be.” Because every time I would say something, it was like, “Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. And I’m like, it’s so obvious. Um, so I was really ready to leave the company. Had had a conversation with him. He was like, look, we’ve got to hire this. And it was like, I don’t know, 250,000 people over a course of time um to keep up with what we needed from a growth perspective. He’s like, I’ve really been looking at this like social media recruiting thing because remember that’s what we called it for a period of time. That’s exactly our EDT nailed down. It’s careers for life. I’m like that sounds like a sentence. Like careers for life. Like I don’t know. Is this a gang we’re joining? Like this. Yeah, I know. I feel very like I don’t know what’s happening. Um I had a radio background. So in his mind, he was like, well, you did radio. Social media can’t be that hard for you. Right. So it was like this vision that he had. Um I didn’t know anything around employer brand. I was following a couple of people like on Twitter and like starting to see about it kind of popping up as I was trying to push people to think outside the box even in just my little corner of the world in HR at the time. Um, so I was like, “Yeah, I don’t think it’s social media recruiting. I don’t think that’s what you’re asking me to do actually, but sure, let’s start there if that’s what makes you feel better, right?” And I think a year into that role where he really was like, “Go meet with the agency that we hired. I’m not really sure they know what they’re talking about. You know the lifeblood of the company. You can put it all together and make it make sense. And I was like, well, that’s a vote of confidence. Thank you. And when I started to really dig into the research of how I was going to sell this idea of this work beyond the social media recruiting piece and what it actually meant as really a heartbeat of the company and especially a company with like Compass Group where it’s like at the time was like 30 something additional companies. a very much a parent company with 30 different companies. So, everyone was going to have their own EVP. Everyone was going to have their own approach for employer brand strategy. So, it’s like where do we begin? And I think that’s what I really learned about myself that like I can take this very complex notion and put it into practice and like how do you really make it make sense for such a a globally what then kind of started to spin out into like the global side of Compass Group but like in a matrix organization such as that and how do you make it make sense? And so it was probably a year into that that I like really fell in love with it because I started to see it as this puzzle and really taking my comms and radio background, my mass media background, digital marketing, all the stuff I loved about HR on the people and culture side and it kind of all fell into this one thing. challenge part of it was like I guess I also am just a glutton for punishment because I was like you know every day was getting beat up by the executive team and you have to have a voice that’s strong enough to understand this there’s some change management but also to kind of massage those relationships and nurture those relationships with key stakeholders at the very senior level even when there’s a huge gap because that’s that’s the only way you’re going to get anybody to listen right and so I think I really was able to hone those skill sets in that time of kind of like and I used to position it like um when people ask me about this type of work I’m like be ready to go to battle like every day because for a period of time until you get into a company that just like believes it you’re battling constantly every day like you’re proving value every day proving value every day and so I think there’s a bit of that that I love too um but it’s nice to be 20 years on this side of it and approaching it differently. Absolutely. Love it. Yeah. What a what a back. What a what a what a love story, right? What a love story of employer brand. Did I start out that the number one question is did you go to school for that? Well, no. Hell no. There is no school for this. School of hard knocks. That’s the school for this. Psych double major in psych and calm. So, I mean, I guess kind of yeah, I went to school for it. And that’s No, that’s a valid point because we’ve asked other guests the same question. And what you find consistently just like your story is that there is no curriculum for this work, right? Like this is we we have tangible skills that are applicable or you know that transition us into this work, but a lot of it is figuring this out on your own uh relying on your network and community and so forth. But for for folks like us who got into this before it was in vogue, right? like it’s you’re you’re blazing your own trail and making your own maps as it be like what do we call you? What’s your role? What is your title? Media recruiter. I can promise you that. Like that’s not what this is. And so it’s like I feel like it’s interesting to be on this side and like in this space that I’m in now, we’re like we need to kind of evolve the name of the role to differentiate you between work that other people in the organization are doing, right? Like that’s more of a practice of that which is nice versus many many many roles at many many many many companies over many many many many years it’s been like well we don’t really like calling it employer brand here so like what can we call it instead you know or like you operations I’m like no we’re really not like that’s not what this is right and so developing a role over in a way of trying to prove value versus I’ve proven the value and now I need to differentiate myself in an organization is very different which is nice. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I love that because it also showcases that as we evolve in this work and you know we get more seasoned in what we do that our um our scope broadens as well right we’re not just focused on TA. We’re looking at the entire organization as we should anyway. But um strategically we’re thinking about all of the levers that brand touches uh and the and the stakeholders and the leadership and the politics. And when you go through a few of these builds, you start to understand like this is so much more than like social media content, right? Like this is way more than just storytelling. This is like Washington DC level bureaucracy and politics, right? It really does. Like my husband would be like, “Why are you so tired?” Like I’m like I can’t even explain it. I can’t even cuz you know some of the meetings where you’re like oh I thought you were my phone and friend now you’re my phone and enemy. Got it. Like now I hate you. Okay. I thought we were cool. Yeah. Oh now I’m I’m I might be impeding on your budget. Got it. So now we like you know so it’s always a Yeah. What is it like 10 steps forward, five steps back? Five steps back. Always. Always. So, so okay. So, you got your start in the uh hospitality. I guess that’s hospitality, right? So, then you built the thing, launched the thing, maintained and optimized the thing, and then you went somewhere else to do it all over again. Where’d you go next? Same industry, different industry. Different industry. Centine healthcare. That’s right. Completely different. I knew the answer to that, by the way. Completely different. Yes. Tell me about that. So now you’re going from sort of 30 30 brands under one umbrella to you know in hospitality to a healthcare organization in a pandemic year literally five or six that yeah add that degree of difficulty. So so I think it was a little bit of the much of the same right because what I was t we had a team that was already stand stood up right like there was already belief in employer brand so it was less of having to go in and create things in that way. It was more um optimizing what was in place and thinking of new gotom market strategies. Um, one thing that was great about going to Centine was a budget for agency, which, you know, I had not experienced before because when you’re building something brand new for a large matrix organization, yeah, there’s money, but you need to prove a lot of stuff first before you get that money. And why would you need agency? We’ve got all of this here, like, you know. Um, so that was a it was a very good learning experience for me. Even though I was I was there a short time, um, some of that was just circumstantial, right? right? Like there was lots of stuff going on and there was new opportunities coming my way as people were coming out of the pandemic and I’m like I think I’ll go over here and try something else. Um but the thing that was great about Centine was that again it was already stood up. There was plans in place which can be good and bad because then you’re kind of stepping into something that listen you got to believe in the work and you got to believe in like what the strategies in place and what’s the mission of the company. And I felt like, you know, yes, that was in place, but I probably do better and what I learned about myself when I’m able to be a part of creating that and not coming in and just having to do like, well, this is what our agency said we are and we got to stick with this because that’s what we have budget for for the next x amount of years. And you’re like, but that’s not really what the deal is right now. I can’t do it. That’s right. Like you have to because if you don’t love it, you can’t be there, right? like that doing this work because how do you do this work and be the hype person for the company in that regard and like you know finding all those different things if you don’t and I I found probably a year or so in that I didn’t love it the way that I thought and what I learned about myself was that I didn’t build it I could do it but it felt very performative for me because it was like I was in a John you know me I was in a box I don’t like being in a box but it was good learnings for me right and I had a mentor of mine who had worked with me at Compass that was like, “Yeah, see, like, you’re going to have to get around that boxing you in stuff because this is part of it.” And I’m like, “I don’t know that I have to though.” Like, I really don’t. I think I think there’s a way for me to learn from it, be boxed in, still push because I get hired for roles because I’m a disruptor, because I live out loud, because I’m bold and I push. because I challenge the status quo until you get me in the box because you’ve had enough and you know and and that’s not what you hired me for and we know that’s not what you hired me for. So it’s like and I’m I got really good at the optics and politics and change management piece, right? So I’m not like attitude in your face about it. I bring you on the journey with me, but if you keep telling me you love it, but you keep putting me in this box and saying not yet, I’m gonna figure out something that is yet for now, right? Like, but I think it was also it was a very time of trying to like hire health care into industry where people didn’t want to be in healthcare, they would burn out. Like there was a lot of things, but it was good learnings for me over the course of time to know what I want, what I don’t want, what I want to build in a team, what I don’t want to have in a team. You know, there’s a lot of that. So, and that and it’s a great team and the leadership team there is great. Um, I still love seeing all the things come out of it. I’m like, that’s great. It just wasn’t for me anymore, which is which is fine. And I think, you know, from there I went on to Acom infrastructure um which is again another globally matrixed organization and I would say even with Centine while just one brand, they really also are matrix too because each state has its own set of health plans underneath it that are all branded. So it’s kind of the same of what I come from and that you know lots of different brands underneath one parent EVP, right? Like a house of brands. Sure. Um and so very much the same going into ACOM where the challenge there was um you know like we needed to put some a strategy in place. We need to figure out how do we localize it across different countries, regions, cultures. I loved loved loved that role. Um, TIA was just great timing for me to like go work for an amazing leader that I really respected outside of industry and just as a person and a human, right? That was really the draw for me. Plus, it’s it’s not too shabby that the office is literally like 20 minutes up the road from my house. I mean, that that’s a perk. That is I was like kind of starve for that like in office interaction to be able to like live and feel the culture and brand a little bit. It’s different when you’re living remotely. So the global role with ACOM I loved because able to really help build a strategy. I was there as a consultant first then I said that I swiped right and stayed um because I was seeing as a consultant the good, the bad, the not so great, where the gaps are, what were the challenges, but also seeing where I could provide impact and knowing you know who’s going to do the work once, you know, my project was over. and we just started having real conversation about did I want to stay, did I want to build it, did I, you know, all these things. So, and it was great. I loved probably the most there was that it kind of took me back to those roots of like the diversity inclusion work at a global level, right? Like we’re we know what we’re looking at in the in the US. It’s very different in every other country of the world what we’re looking at from a diversity and inclusion standpoint. And so, um, it’s a good muscle to flex to have to think through how does our culture and our big brand play into our little brand, Evie, right? Um, and then how does that localize in very, very different cultures? Um, so there was a lot of great conversations on the phone at all hours of the day for me, which I I was thriving off of it, right? like you know in Australia like what’s going to play there in Canada what’s going to play there in India what’s playing there like I remember as a consultant very early on having a conversation still in lockdown and it was at the time when India was seeing a increase again and having a conversation about trying to get people to come back to the office and one of the TA guys was like summer listen like all due respect to you very polite to a woman and female he’s like but with all due respect like we have people worried about if they come to work they’re going to die so that’s the reality And it seems like, oh my god. But oh my god, it like level set the whole damn thing for me. I was like, yeah, it’s like life or death now. For real. Thank you. I will quit trying to check the box just because that’s what we think is happening and what we need here. And it it just reminds you of like the worldly view that you have to have and like that cultural intelligence to really things out. So I think that was the greatest three years spent for me being in that or three-ish years spent in that role of really some with like you know equally the frustrations of politics and the optics that come with the global role but like the learnings were invaluable because you’re getting to work with the diversity inclusion teams and all these different regions of the world and what’s important to them and what’s the focus for them as well as how do we then articulate that as part of our employer brand to try to not just retract but retain and I think that is the biggest miss for so many companies because they only see this work as hiring focus. Ah talent attraction only because that’s what the ROI is that you can see immediately and I hear you allegedly allegedly. So, so before we before we go down that rabbit hole, because yes, that is one that needs to be discussed uh big time. Um I want to call out a couple of things that I think are gems that you’ve already dropped. One um that oftent times employer brand leaders are hired because they’re disruptors, right? You and I have both dealt with this um in different different industries, similar industries, but large companies. And by and large, companies don’t know how to deal with employer brand leaders, right? Because we we don’t sit neatly in the TA or we’re not recruiters. We’re not HR, business partners. We’re not comms or marketing. We’re kind of like all of those things, but yet none of those things. And so, you know, usually when you come in and you get that first year out the way, you’re still shiny, you’re doing your road shows, everybody’s loving the ideas. Awesome. break things run fast. We love it. And then that that first performance review kicks in. Like I don’t even know how to evaluate like wait what happened? I thought you loved me. Right. And then then it just sort of gets weird. Right. And then Right. And so so the beauty is that we have the autonomy and the I’d say the access to everybody in the organization. The challenge is that even with that access, right, um can lead to some some pers per perceptions, some perspectives, some jealousy even that you’re getting meetings and taking time and but it’s all within the purview of your role. Problem is most people don’t know what the role is, what it’s supposed to do, what it entails, what’s necessary to support it and all that. So I love that you said, you know, um sort of being found in a box, right? or being found in a box, being trying to be put in a box and that you didn’t accept it. And so what it reminds me of one of the uh one of my favorite quotes in life by uh Caroline uh Wonga, who is uh the CEO of Essence Magazine, formerly chief diversity officer at Target. She said in a speech once, “If who you are doesn’t fit where you are, change where you are, not who you are.” And I think you lived that. you you you certainly went and found the space where your skill set, approach and uh and perspectives were uh elevated and and and supported. So really really dope gem there. Um I couldn’t let let the audience miss that. The second thing is cultural intelligence which I think brings us to a really interesting point right now because we are in a space where the hiring or recruitment practices are under a magnifying glass of legality or perception of legality um based on some very um uh you know what’s the word controversial executive orders that have been put out in the past month. Yeah. Um, and it’s only been a month, y’all. Um, that being said, we’ve got a lot of people in our industry, um, trying to figure out how do I brand an organization now to attract talent, especially talent that reflects the communities that our, you know, that our company serves. Um, and and do so in a way that still reflects the culture that we actually have regardless of this executive order. But how do we do so now in a way where we’re still remaining culturally intelligent but also in compliance? So I would love your perspective as as you know you’re in this. Um how are you seeing this navigated? So I think right now there’s a little bit of a standstill that’s happening with not just with TIA like I I can speak for lots of other companies that I’m seeing this at right where everyone’s like I’m not really sure how much we’re able to say what we’re allowed to say. So I think from a legal team perspective, which I do know this for TIA, like we’re still in that space of like legal telling us like let us like figure this all out really quick and like let you know. I will say that for us, we’re in the middle of a lot of foundational work that we can’t stop on and the work that I’m like working with talent attraction on and things of like how they’re going to market. A lot of that messaging was around the cultural pieces and how we talk about diversity and inclusion. And so we’re having to really rethink that like how do we now showcase it in a way that we’re still giving you the heart of who we are without necessarily the words. So we’re fortunate enough that we have a really great library that our employer brand strategy team prior to me joining but then I’ve been a part of this work is we have our faces of TIA series which is very much the voice of our people right like it is different stories that make up lots of different people in our organization from all different walks of life. And that’s really my strategy at this point of how we move through it is that okay, we can’t say that right now. So let’s make this very much about our people. Like let’s just showcase our people in a way that you know we’re staying compliant to what we need to because we are a financial services organization. We have lots of ties in in lots of places um that we have to be really considerate of what we’re doing. But I think it’s we don’t want to lose who we are at the core, which is we are reflective of the communities that we serve. And so we want to make sure that we are honoring that. And so that’s been a lot of my conversations lately is like, oh, are we still going to go forward with that campaign? Yep. I’m just going to change some of the words. Like, right, the video stands true, the words are going to change a little bit, right? And so I think it’s that and I think that’s really if we can push back past the hurt, the anger, the the feeling of I won’t it’s not fear but it is fear right of the space of where like we don’t know what’s coming next and just continue how we can from a status quo perspective of making it about our people and making sure our people feel seen and safe. That is a monumental task in some instances for certain companies, especially the ones that have come forward real clear like we’re real clear now on who was being performative. We’re real freaking clear, right? And so I think that can be a challenge for those individuals. I would say I feel fortunate in the culture of our company and that we’re more concerned of like how are we messaging a way to stay compliant versus changing who we are because it was never performative. That’s strong. So really standing 10 toes down on your values. Yeah. And that and and those don’t change, right? Because the values are who we are and they don’t change. I mean that’s they shouldn’t. They do change for some companies but for ours to say they shouldn’t, but we see that they should be changing but they are changing for someies and I’m and it’s really it’s very real. Um but absolutely you know having the leadership of Desunda and a very diverse leadership team that covers all perspectives I think you know while we’re not boldly coming out with any messaging at this point in time again only you know a couple weeks in on this of like still trying to figure things out. She’s been very clear in our town halls of like we are who we are and that does not change right and I think that’s exactly what our employees need to hear and it and it comes true and she’s very active on social media both personally and professionally and she’s made it I think without coming really boldly out and saying it she’s made it very clear where she stands which is absolutely necessary and I think that’s the point that a lot that that’s getting missed and lost along the way is the employees are going to look to leadership to know what’s safe. What what are we empowered to do? What is our point of view? What is our stance? Um where do I fit into this, right? Because there’s there’s people from communities that are directly impacted by some of the policies outside of DEI um who are afraid, right? And so you know I think that there’s also a bigger question right now about what is the employer brands uh employer brand leader as well as the employer brand itself. What is the role in creating that sense of safety but also the support right? How how are we embracing our employees through the brand work um to make sure that they know not not only what’s going on but what their role is in this. What are you seeing? I think I think some companies are getting it really wrong really quickly because they weren’t ahead of it. And I think other companies saw it coming and we’re way ahead of it. And I think that those that this is embedded in your culture. So if I look at even like TIA for example, right? Like it’s just who we are as part of the culture. We work with higher ed institutions though. So a lot of this was coming down the pipeline last year, year before last, depending on what states we’re sitting in, right? So you kind of already have a vision of okay, regardless of who goes into you to office here, like there’s some challenges already popping up and we need to think about how we’re approaching it and we have a great team that focuses on that. I think a good indicator for me of where we are as a company is like the biggest thing that we’re concerned about is just making sure from legal that we’re like not pushing too hard, right? Like so for me it’s like it’s not like changing of all these policies. It’s more like just how we’re talking about it. And I think that that comes true in like how we’re communicating with our employees. And I think from an employer brand perspective at any company, it it does fall on these teams and this work to help with internal messaging to be consultative where you can with the teams that are stewarding the work whether they want to hear it or not. But I think it’s really leaning into what are your employees saying externally on review sites? What are they out there like talking about on social media? Like what sentiment information do you have? And maybe approach it that way. Um and how you’re helping to, you know, message internally as well as what are you saying externally? Because nothing worse as we know to be putting one type of brand out in the world but living a different one in inside. Oh boy. And I think we’ve I know that over the years we’ve both seen a lot of that. And I think that unfortunately we’re seeing a lot of that right now where it’s very clear in how the executive leadership is positioning themselves outside of where they think people aren’t watching. And it’s just hilarious to me that why would you not think that people aren’t watching right now more than ever? Um I think it’s just like standing true to like you don’t need to be cancelling programming that you already have in place. like Black History Month is still a thing like we should be doing, you know, like how are you still messaging that kind of your stat like what is your status quo? Like your temppole moments that you already do for your employees like how is that showing up? And I think that’s that’s with any company. And unfortunately, I think that not a lot of companies are equipped. And I unfortunately feel like um a lot of employer brand teams are newish or are not positioned well in their companies to be able to have a voice. So they don’t feel like they can push back. Yeah. I think I think it’s more Well, I think both equally. I’m not going to say that it’s the latter more so because I think there are um look there’s always going to be folks who would heir on the side of caution uh and and and legal will certainly do that they’ll air on the side of the least risk right u perceived or real u but I think there’s also something to be said about where employer brand sits and and what impact our voice or what power or authority our voice carries within the organizations we’re doing this work at. So, I don’t know. Uh I have yet to see, let me just say, uh I’m sure there may be something out there where employer brand has an equal voice with corporate brand. I I haven’t seen it yet. Yeah. Not to say it doesn’t exist. Maybe it does. I would love to know if it does, but I haven’t seen it yet. And I’ve seen a lot. Um, and I understand the why, right? The the essential is the perception that EB doesn’t generate revenue. So, corporate brand has a direct impact on Wall Street, uh, you know, and and shareholder value and revenue in some cases, right? And I get that. Um, but when it comes to the pulse and the energy and the culture of your company through the lens of the people, I think that should have a seat at the table. Maybe that’s represented by chief people, officers, and so forth, but not necessarily through the lens of brand, right? It’s usually through the lens of um compliance or policy and and and so I I don’t know what that looks like. You know, I I don’t want to overinflate our importance, but I also think that there’s something, right? We have something to offer to that conversation that I think oftentimes adds a lens that people don’t look through, you know. I would agree and I think that it starts to lean into that whole conversation of where does this work sit right and so I think um yes often I find that in HR it is only about like we said earlier the attraction piece and so when you try to have a voice in many companies it’s like okay well just we’re not hiring right now so like why are you worried about it and you’re like no no no no before we are actually always should be worried even more so when we’re not hiring hiring, right? Um versus it’s sitting in brand. So like on our team, we’re enterprise brand. We sit with the chief brand officer, chief marketing officer like right like we’re right there in those conversations. And it’s been a learning curve for me on this side of even though at a I sat in brand as well, but just to have this type of access as we were talking about earlier and really like people saying well what do you think? Not that I haven’t had it that way, but like because I did have those experiences and and I and I was experiencing in that way because I was building at all these other companies. In this case, like it’s built. I’m just changing kind of how we think about it. Um what in working with our employer brand strategy team, I’ve kind of set myself a little bit apart. Still working on employer branding, but across how we show up across all the facets, right? So it’s a little bit different. And to be asked like, well, if you think there’s value in this, then we should do it. Versus, well, it doesn’t matter. Like, I’m gonna ask you what you think, but I’m checking the box because I had to ask you kind of thing. Like, it there’s it’s different. And I think it helps us in in moments like these where, you know, we’re all pulling up together in all these different work streams where we’ve got representation from comms, marketing, brand, de andi. like let’s have a real conversation about how we want to show up moving forward for Heritage Month and you know internally what do we want to be messaging and we’re having like real conversation where we’re like yeah it totally aligns to our brand it totally aligns on where we’re going it’s totally aligning to like the work that we want our clients seeing us doing like it and and and that that makes me very hopeful about this work at this particular company in this moment in time right because it’s like for me I am getting that voice in a way to your point you normally don’t have because there it’s not seen as a value to the bottom line I think because there’s so much visibility on the people element in this whole space of how we are right now right I think it’s lending itself to really be there if you have leaders in place that believe in it which we do and so I feel fortunate in that well that’s the I think that’s the the defining factor right and and I wanted to ask you know two things one how how did you how did you find yourself in this unicorn uh position of not sitting in TA, not sitting on comms per se, but you’re under the the broader marketing and brand brand, excuse me, brand organization. How did I mean did they did they bring you into that or did you have some help in shaping that? So, I was hired in to work as part of the employer brand strategy team which sits on brand. So, sits on Okay. Oh, brought over from HR in previous years prior to me coming in. I don’t know the reason behind why it was brought over other than the fact of as it happens in many companies because remember earlier I said even though I’ve I’ve sat in lots group we were trying to figure out where it all sat like I went from chief people office chief growth officer back to comms back to reputation management I mean it you know ping ponged around a bit and I think it happens in a lot of companies and so I think um but this work had been moved employer brand strategy to work alongside inside HR but separate from HR and then I think really what has happened is just if you look at my background it’s a little all over but it was all leading toward it it was always around this work at least for the past you know 20some years right but it was a lot of variables and a lot of side projects um chief of staff executive assistant like all different kinds of things and wherever they need to put me in a budget line get the work done but get the money approved group, right? It was kind of like, sure, um, but a lot of it’s been around this work. And so when you sit down and start having conversations, which were very transparent, authentic organization, and I started saying, well, yeah, like I can do a lot of the stuff that you hired me for. That’s what you hired me for, but I also can do this and this and this and this. Um, and that led to kind of this unicorn type situation where it was like, oh, you do have this experience of sitting in HR plus this background of, you know, working in the chief people office in lots of different roles, you know, like. So, it’s just kind of the experience that I brought with me in a time that’s needed where we’re trying to break down silos in both the marketing and comms as well as in HR. um and having that background, it just lends itself to it almost naturally. It honestly I didn’t go looking for it. I would have been like, “Yeah, let’s just keep doing it the way that you hired me.” But it was really in conversations of just getting to know the leaders and they’re like, “Tell me about yourself.” And I’m like,” and they’re like, “Wait, what? Wait, go back to that. You did what? Can we talk?” Like it was more that do all that. I didn’t know you’ve done that before. We did you know that we need that over here? And I’m like, “Yeah, I mean I’ve been kind of poking around, you know? It’s it’s more that it’s more just me being that speaking things out loud of being like I was curious as to when I came in the organization like why are we doing these things and they’re like oh we’ve been wanting to fix that or you know do you have the ability to do that do you understand like how to guide that because we don’t have that right now like it’s more being bold to speak up on what you do know and then figuring out a way to be like yeah I could do that I you know fine sure that and and I I want to stay on that point because because it’s so important. I think a lot of times we we as employer brand leaders don’t don’t maximize the moments of how much facetime we get with people who have a lot of authority in our organizations, right? whether it’s seauers or or whomever. And if we don’t offer that perspective, that expertise uh rather than just being happy to be in the room, right? Then you’re missing huge opportunities, not not just for the work you’re doing, but also perspective around the the organization. Where where could this brand work be useful or your skill set be useful in other ways that most leaders aren’t even thinking about when they think about employer brand? So I think that’s a really important point you bring up. Secondly, since you’ve sat in different organizations within the companies with this work, how do you find where you sit now, right? Being under the umbrella or the uh the big tent of brand versus being in the HR organizations. Yeah, I think it gives you a broader perspective. And so meaning when you’re in a when you’re embedded in and being paid for and you are bound to your headcount that for you and your team in HR everything’s everything is reactive right that’s right you know so like it’s limited resources I mean limited resources full stop full stop right but not just that it’s that whatever is important right now is important right now and the needs the hiring needs could change tomorrow and they’re like yeah don’t worry about that anymore. So, your priorities are consistently shifting, shifting, shifting, shifting, shifting. And so, it feels like you’re always just whack-a-ole time. Um, and you’re trying to push towards strategy and you’re trying to push towards being proactive and everybody’s like, “Yeah, yeah, we know we need to do that.” Yeah. Yeah. But you’re always building the plane as you’re flying it. And that’s that’s how it that’s been my experiences in most organizations when it’s set in talent attraction or or been paid for by talent attraction um where like we pay for you so like you’re at our beck and call kind of feel right or you’re on our team therefore we own your time versus when you sit on brand and you truly sit on brand where you’re a headcount of brand you’ve built your team on brand and your leadership is brand and marketing or however that falls. you’re now really operating as a consultant with your internal client um being HR and that allows a very different scope right because I have a very different view sitting in brand or even when I sat in the chief growth offer officer organization at compass group that was also a very different perspective because I was able to see everything holistically so I think when you can sit outside of TA and HR but you’re assisting them in their work it it just is better. Your your work is just better because you’re not down in the day-to-day tactical stuff. you’re doing that, but you’re doing it in a way that feels much more efficient, much more um broad brush to the entire organization because then I can clearly see it as an example like, oh, I’m going to help provide information to our business development team that’s going to help them understand people and culture, but that’s all stuff that I can recreate and use over here for a campaign in six months when we have a hiring need in that space. Like, I can just think about things and our teams can think about things in a much more holistic perspective. um than when you’re just like I just need a campaign. I just need to talk about pro programmatic. I just need to be worried about this right now, right? Versus, you know, you’re sitting over here and you’re seeing like, oh, we’ve got an entire calendar of 18 months of things and I can clearly see where I’m going to repurpose things. Um because every company has that issue, right, where they’re like every indiv needs all needs to be net new every single time and I am the queen of repurpose. So I’m like we do not need to do that. Like we just need to repurpose all the time spent for that social post or that article or whatever and reuse it. Sure. So I think Sure. That’s something you lose when you sit in HR because then you’re knocking on doors and begging for content and for connectivity because I remember being on that side being like I just need to talk to you. What do you need to talk to me about? Why? Well, we’re not we we’re not even hiring right now. Yeah. Yeah. And we’re not even hiring right now versus me this in this way. I’m flowing the other way where I’m the I have all the information. Our team has all the information and I’m looking at the gaps that I see and being like, “Hey, can I grab some time with you? I’d really love to give you some creative that would be really great to help your team because I’m not seeing it show up in the world.” And I I just came through and followed the candid journey myself last year and it’s nowhere, right? Like it’s like, oh my gosh, it gives you an opportunity to kind of point out gaps and opportunities um and really fill it in. So that’s the difference I see and I wish more companies would move to it. As a practitioner, I think it’s so much more beneficial to people in this space to sit on a brand side of the organization or comms and marketing because there’s more room to grow because the number one thing that I’m asked number one thing that I’m asked over and over and over again is how do you continue to evolve in this work and continue to progress in your career without becoming a consultant going to work for agency like because let’s be real like Right. Right. Let’s be real. Like you’re either going to go do that. Most companies are not going to make you there’s not going to be like a VP of employer brand. I mean maybe in some cases, but in larger companies, but it’s like you get to a certain point and it’s a ceiling, right? And so that’s facts. Yeah. I get that question a lot where people are like, well, what do I pivot to? And I think for me that’s probably the reason why my approach has been this way and where I’ve kind of kept up my learnings and people and culture work and AI evolution and all the things that interest me as a human where I see gaps in the world separate from what industry I’m in while also looking for ways in the company that I’m in to kind of broaden grow like where can I stretch and take stretch assignments that make zero sense to anybody else but if I have one leader that’s like sure jump in and do Dude, I’m jumping in and doing it because I want them to remember, you know, I can figure anything out. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Look, you got to stakehold it because otherwise you pigeon hole into I was just your brand has so many facets like you should be able to grow in lots of different ways, but you have to you have to market yourself, you know? You have to think about ways that you can market yourself. 100%. And and I think that’s that brings up the the Hatfields versus McCoy question of employer brand or recruitment marketing or versus recruitment marketing and and and I think what you have just showcased beautifully for the audience here is that when you are in an HR or TA organization doing employer brand work, you will always be relegated to recruitment marketing versus the broader uh expanse of what this work from an employer brand perspective can offer you because to your point they pay TA pays for you. So TA wants the maximum productivity in right in direct relation to what they need done done and and TA is a uh service provider to functions within the organization. So yes, you do have to hustle and get out there and see how can I help your organization hire hard to fill talent, all these things, but you then it takes away from the broader brand aspect of it when you’re trying to apply brand to recruitment, marketing efforts, and it just muddies the water. So that leads me to the allimp important question, Summer Bar. What is the difference between employer brand and recruitment marketing? Please settle this for for all. Okay, thank you. Recruitment marketing is what everybody wants to bucket this into. So, let’s start there. What it is and what it is. What it is, what it isn’t. Um, what it is is the way that you’re going to market and all the creative and the social media and all the tactical items that you go to market with, right? So, that is your localization of your employer brand. Your employer brand is actually how people feel working for you, working with you, how they feel like they’re being seen, how they feel like they’re showing up. And that employer brand strategy is then what how will you employ those value systems that mission that purpose and through recruitment marketing but also through various other tactics um internally throughout the organization as well. So I think you know we I see all kinds of ones all the time where it’s like you know it’s the foundation here this is how you go. I don’t know like there’s there’s so many like little cliche ones that I hear all the time of like employer brand is this recruitment marketing is this. But I really think the employer brand is like the foundational elements of how you feel working there. Um different from your EVP, right? So your EVP is also foundational, but it’s a little bit even more involved, but your employer brand itself is like how does that show up? And so it’s more than a tagline, just so we’re clear. Um I would put the tagline underneath recruitment marketing, but me. Yes. Yes. Breach. But the employer brand itself is how does it feel to work here? like what are those attributes that come into play and then how do you localize that and so that’s where the words the creative the visual vocabulary comes into play that’s recruitment marketing um it’s it can be difficult right because like you said we want to put everything underneath this recruitment marketing branch and then I get the question every TA team has a recruitment marketer why doesn’t recruitment marketing sit in marketing oh also a great question I don’t know like you know so It’s always the whole space, but I I really look at people like, you know, everyone wants to kind of put it into that funnel space. Great if you want to do that. But I really look at it as like the foundation pieces is that employer brand and not what you’re saying. It’s what you actually do. So you’ll hear me always say like, “Show me don’t tell me.” So what you show me is your employer brand and what you tell me is your recruitment marketing. I love it. I love that that that description. challenge on that before because they’re like, “Well, that’s kind of like you’re I can you can show me through recruitment marketing.” Yeah, you can, but you can. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s it’s so so the way I like to say it is um recruitment marketing puts butts in seats. Employer brand tells butts what the seat is, feels, looks like, and if they want to stay, right? And if they and if they want to sit in it, right? And I think that’s like it’s such a big thing for me like when I sit down with leaders in any industry or any roundts I go to, you know, I love to go to conferences and I go sit down with people. I’m always like, listen, here’s the end of the day thing. Like if we can quit talking about employer brand about just being attraction focused. Again, I get that that’s where it’s easy to show value. It’s easy to show return. But I can show you just as much value in return on the on how it affects retention and how my personal mission as a human in this world and I learned this from my dad is that like people want to feel seen and heard and I want and hope that I leave every person I interact with with that feeling that you were seen and heard that I like did something that makes you feel good and that you like are a better person because we’ve spent the time together. Like that’s what I hope for. But I also want people just to feel seen in their space because we’re in a world where that doesn’t happen often anymore, right? And I just I feel like that’s where this work really truly can shine. And that if we can allow people, our own people that we already have hired to feel seen and heard, the attraction part will take care of itself because they want to stay. They feel seen. They want to share with their friends how seen and heard that they feel and how how they feel like they belong. Like that’s what I want. And I feel like if we could all approach it that perspective, it makes the rest of it easier. I’m always like, if you got if people aren’t leaving, then then you’re just hiring for growth. And that’s amazing. Wouldn’t that be great? Like, you know, like and and look, I I I can’t let the opportunity pass. If anyone has the opportunity to be at a conference with Summer, you’re in for a treat. She’s a She’s amazing to be at a conference for, especially small circle. Like, if you can get into that circle, get in there and stay there. We have fun. And with and with full consent, get a hug. She’s amazing energy. Thank you. Of course. So, so I look, we’re we could go for hours. Um I I I want to take us to the point and I and I Oh, I feel like there’s so much more we didn’t talk about, but that’s that’s what part two’s for. Um I I as we always do uh on Employee Branding Unfiltered, we uh have our guests answer a question that our former guest left for them and in parting uh leave a question for our next guest. So the question that was left for you, um Summer, as an employer branding professional, what tool do you wish existed that doesn’t? Oo, that one’s kind of hard because I feel like there’s so many good ones that are coming up. You only get one. You only get one. I think that for me, like for having a tool that would really help us look at, and somebody’s going to tell me they already have it, that’s fine. But maybe I just don’t have knowledge. That’s fine. Is really taking that sentiment that we see from our employees and help us truly craft things in the right way. um based on our purpose, mission. I feel like I’ve seen some variable of it in some other tools, but like never fully baked out um along with like we could feed in like analytics to it and really help us see a broader picture of like where we’re influencing different things across not just candid journey but employee but also wouldn’t it be lovely if we could also figure out a way to get like what business return that we’re offering with that the work that we’re doing as well. It’s like somebody’s gonna come. I got it. I got it. I already have it. And they probably do. I just missed you because I have way too much fun at the conferences walking around like seeing my people and I probably didn’t come to your booth. And it’s fine. Like you didn’t just pay me. That’s facts. Yeah. You know what’s funny? Um I think what you just described is the holy grail of employer branding, right? And and I think that’s the right that’s the right ask. If if if the genie was given one wish and you asked for that, I think that would be a wish. well uh spent. But yes, I love that question. So, in that regard, um I and I I’ll do some research, too, to see if there’s anyone we know who’s doing that, but I think I feel like there’s pieces there’s pieces of it, right? But I don’t think there’s like I know what you want. Yeah, we we’ll get there. Um so, in parting then, what question would you like to leave for our next guest? H I think it would be where do you see this work in employer brand evolving to h I want to leave it something like thoughtful with it but I’m not really sure like I just want like where do you see this work evolving to especially in when it comes to like the reskilling and AI it’s like something around there like that feels like it’s very um provocative right now. So, it’s like how how do we continue to present ourselves from an employer brand like with heart in a time of AI? Maybe it’s that so clean that up. I’ll think about if I may if if I’m hearing the the spirit of the com of the question um h could we say and you look edit edit me in the on on the fly could uh how how do we maintain the humanity in employer branding with the advent of AI thank you does that work all right say look teamwork for helping me articulate my words well somebody said earlier somebody hands me a script and they’re like we need you to read from the script and I can’t do it. I’m terrible with scripts. I’m on the board at my university and that like tomorrow I have to speak at an event and they’ve already sent me the script and I’m like I can’t do it but I can throw that out. I can just like do this all day long. So it’s like you asked me, you know. Anyway, fine. Thank you for helping me energy. Of course. Of course. Look, somebody said on a call earlier, if there’s one thing John Graham will do, it’s find the words. So I appreciate you so much, Summer. Thank you for being um uh an amazing thought leader in the space uh a change agent and advocate for the advocates um you are a beacon for those who are just getting in the space and professionals like myself who’ve been for years. I love to see what you do and I appreciate your your time, your wisdom and your uh your uh generosity. So thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you. Of course. Of course. We would love to have you back. I feel seen. Thank you for making me feel seen. Of course. Of course. [Music]